Ep 268: From the “Dude Zone” to the “Dad Zone” with David Arrell

Dr. Nicole (00:00): This episode is all about how men can be better, more supportive partners and fathers. You will definitely want to listen to it with your partner. It's going to spark some conversation.

(00:16): Welcome to the all about pregnancy and birth podcast. If you're having a baby in the hospital, you are giving birth in a system that too often takes away power from women over what happens in their own bodies. I'm Dr. Nicole Calloway Rankins, a practicing board certified OBGYN, who's had the privilege of helping well over a thousand babies into this world. I've been a doctor for over 20 years, and I'm here to help you take back your power, advocate for yourself, and have the beautiful pregnancy and birth that you deserve. This podcast is for educational purposes only, and it's not a substitute for medical advice. Check out the full disclaimer at drnicolerankins.com/disclaimer. Now, let's get to it. Hello there. Welcome to another episode of the podcast. This is episode number 268. Whether it is your first time listening or you have been here before, I am so glad you're spending some time with me today.

(01:10): David Arnell is an executive coach, consultant and creator of Welcome to Fatherhood, his passion program for supporting today's fathers welcome to Fatherhood or WTF as it's appropriately called at times encourages the development of deeper personal authenticity while also building stronger relationships. His work Recenters Fatherhood as an opportunity for personal growth and development for men, while also fully supporting the relationship and responsibility components that come with it. Welcome to Fatherhood is specifically designed to help new and expected dads better connect with their partners and better prepare for what's coming next at each stage of the Pregnancy to Parenthood journey. David currently lives in Alabama with his wife Jennifer, two young children, Justin and Dottie in their chocolate lab, Johnny Biscuits. David was actually on the podcast about three years ago. I can't believe it. Time flies, and I'm delighted to have him back. We have a great conversation about what is the dude zone, why it's important, what are the traps on the way from the dude zone to the dad zone?

(02:19): What is the difference between team up versus team out? What are things that he sees that dads are most worry about and the challenges that they face in becoming a dad? We talk about how often he encounters dads with postpartum depression and we give some tips or he shares some tips rather, on how to be a better partner during each stage of the pregnancy and birth journey. First trimester, second trimester, third trimester, labor and birth postpartum, all of that. Again, this is going to be a great episode and you are definitely going to want to listen to this episode with your partner. Now, another thing you can do with your partner is the birth preparation course. The birth preparation course is my signature online childbirth education class that gets you calm, confident and empowered to have a beautiful birth. One of the things that people really love about this class is that they can do it with their partner together. They can do it at home, throw it up on the smart tv. It's really, really convenient like that, and it can often spark conversation. You pause, you talk about things. It's especially great for dads who may not necessarily feel like they want to go to an in-person class or coordinating schedules or all of that stuff. So check out all the details of the birth preparation course at drnicolerankins.com / enroll. Use the code Dr. Nicole and get an additional 10% off. All right, let's get into the conversation with David.

(03:51): Thank you so much, David, for agreeing to come back onto the podcast. It has been a little bit, but I'm excited to have you

David (03:57): Back. Yeah, thanks Dr. Nicole. Looking forward to visiting with you here today and connecting about all things fatherhood and our continued collaboration to help people have an easier journey from pregnancy through childbirth and end of parenthood.

Dr. Nicole (04:11): Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So why don't you start off by telling us a bit about yourself and your work and your family?

David (04:16): Sure. I'll start with family. That's always most important. I've been married for over 10 years to my lovely wife, Jennifer. We have two kids. We've just moved to Alabama. I'm here in Montgomery, Alabama. She's an active duty Air force nurse, pediatric, a pediatric nurse practitioner. And so we just recently got moved down here from the DC area, and we have a lovely dog, a chocolate lab named Johnny Biscuits. He just turned four. So the whole team is thriving down here in the summer heat of Alabama. That being said, by trade, I'm an executive coach and consultant, but my welcome to fatherhood work is like my passion project. That's a focal niche within that larger framework where I really try to help new and expectant fathers have a better appreciation of that journey that they're on or that they're still on if they already are there with baby, baby and mama next to 'em. But also how to really step up and thrive in fatherhood by creating a new relationship to the responsibilities and relationship obligations that come with having a brand new baby in your arms, but staying connected and committed to their personal and professional goals as well. So that dad zone thriving is really figuring out how to have those new relationships within the relationships you've had and how really to continue to keep your eyes up and making things better for yourself and those around you. So that's really the focal point of my welcome to Fatherhood work.

Dr. Nicole (05:39): Gotcha. And then what made you start it? Was it personal experience? What made you decide, Hey, this is something that I want to do, is really focus on helping new dads?

David (05:50): So back during our first pregnancy, I was really energetically committed to being an awesome partner, a stay at home dad. I just sold a business. I was really ready to step up and be the stay at home dad and enjoy that chapter of my life. So in spite of my best intentions and the bandwidth I had to devote to that aspiration, that goal, I really struggled. I didn't get what I felt was actionable support or a proper understanding or even just appreciation for my role in that journey. So obviously my wife is getting all the attention at all of our different visits and everybody is asking her how she's doing, but then they would ask her how I was doing, and I'm standing right there. I'm like, right.

Dr. Nicole (06:39): It's like you can, hey, right?

David (06:42): But then when I would be like, well, I don't know. I'm not pregnant. I was told to take a birth class, but what am I going to learn about having a baby? I'm not pregnant. So I was bringing my, and we'll get into this in a minute, but I was bringing my dude's own mindset into that conversation, but then I also wasn't being met there and then being given things I could work with. I was just told, oh, just be helpful and supportive. And I'm like, yeah, that's why I'm standing here. What does that mean? I'm an action guy. I like to do stuff, and I'm sure you see this in your practice all the time. The guys are fiddling around, what do I do? So I wasn't getting support and appreciation and information that fit into what I was looking for or what I was expecting and actually what would've worked for me. So I kept figuring things out the hard way or after a long period of time, a lot of struggle, a lot of struggle on the part of my wife trying. She was wishing she was being better, helped and supported by me. So many of the pregnant couples I speak to, talk to mama, how are you doing? And then I ask about How's baby doing? And then I'll ask about how her partner's doing or he's like, I'm doing great, and she'll look at

(07:52): Based on what I would have a different answer. So that's where that kind of came up my own struggles, my own learnings, and then not wanting to have the guys coming up behind me that are becoming pregnant, going through that pregnancy journey. Why should they have the same bad experience? If you walk out of a terrible restaurant and somebody's coming in, how was it? You probably want to say, you know what? It really wasn't that good, or don't get the pork chops or whatever. Or if you had a good experience, I just had the steak. It was amazing. So wanting to be a helpful advocate for just the mission of helping guys be more successful in the birth space, be better partners, better connected to their partner on her journey, better prepared it's coming up, but also so they go through that journey of feeling empowered and valued and being able to contribute in a way that actually lands and is helpful so that their own sense of what does it mean for them to move into fatherhood can be more attuned to some of the historical ways We've looked at fatherhood as an aspiration, as an opportunity, as a goal should be striving for with excitement and anticipation to help 'em reconnect to the bigger journey of what does it mean to bring forth the healthy masculine in relationship in society as a dad, as a parent, as a partner.

(09:09): And a big part of that is reframing it into that opportunity mindset. So kind of all those things together out popped, welcome to fatherhood or as I like to call it WTF, because that sentiment is that sentiment shines occasionally

Dr. Nicole (09:24): Appropriate. Alrighty. So let's get into some specifics of fatherhood and how to help folks be by their father. So you described something called the dude zone. What is that and why is that important?

David (09:36): The dude zone is what I use is a catchphrase to sort of capture the essence of what it is, how that's different from when you are on that pregnancy journey, and then when you become a father and the dude zone, you probably have your relationship as one of your big priorities where you're putting your time, effort, energy, money, et cetera. You have your career, your profession, your job where that's also a big energetic and time commitment. But then you have the rest of your life, all your hobbies, your interests, all the things that are separate from those, many of which pre-existed, the relationship or would exist outside the relationship. If you lost your job, you wouldn't stop hanging out with your best friend. These are the things that are formed part of your core identity. Where I see so many guys struggle in that journey is they don't know that there's this thing called the dude zone.

(10:25): So they're still trying to actively engaged and invest all the same amount of time, effort, and energy in these non-relationship non-work parts of their lives. And they don't understand or appreciate that they are not in the dude zone anymore. So that struggle that so many guys come through is really about them trying to hold onto it. So they want to stay connected to the dudes and they want keep doing, they still want to go out to the bar every Friday and Saturday night, or they still want to be out mountain biking all day Saturday, all these extracurricular, non-relationship things, they're still trying to invest in that, but with a baby on the way, and when your new baby gets here, even more pressing, that's a recipe for disaster. So that dude zone is framework as a way to help differentiate what that is to where the dad zone is. It's what that journey is from the dude zone to the dad zone.

Dr. Nicole (11:21): Got it, got it. Yeah, that's important. There's definitely not enough of a recognition really for moms and dads that you're going to be changed as a person after you become a parent, and you have to figure out how to navigate that, your new self. So what are some of the pitfalls that you see, some of the traps that you see dads fall into on their way from that due zone to the dad zone?

David (11:44): Well, I think something you just said there really resonates is that everybody has to kind of figure out what that new reality is for them and is going to be for them. And it's not something that can be, it's not a puzzle to be solved. It's an experience to be lived through and lived into, and you're basically birthing your new self once you become a parent. And so the journey there is necessarily a journey of trial and error of zigzagging wrong turns. And where I see guys really struggle is when that ping ponging or zigzagging journey is happening, they tend to miss in one of two ways. Either they go all in on I want to be the best partner possible, and they lose all connection with their sacred individuality, as I call it, their deeper sense of self, who they are, their personal mission of what's their gift to bring to the world, what's their career aspirations, what's their own personal development goals?

(12:42): And they go all in on being the awesome partner for mama. And that ends up, it might feel good initially, but it ends up not really working. I tell them, your partner doesn't want somebody, she has to tell to do every single thing, even though you're ready. What do I need to do? How do I be great? And she's like, I don't want somebody that I need to boss around. I want my partner. I want somebody here who's helping me, who's on this journey with me. So I called those guys missing into Wimpy Town. They just hear helpful and supportive, and they just become a little droid of, oh, I'll be helpful and supportive, helpful and supportive. So that ends up misfiring and creates problems for them and the relationship. The other one, those guys are really holding too hard onto their sacred individuality, their extracurriculars, you know what?

(13:27): I'm not pregnant. I'm going out. You should stay home and get rest and not drink. Obviously I'm a hundred percent supportive of those, but I'm not going to sit on the couch while you're sleeping. I'm going out. I got my friends, my boys are here, here. We're doing this, we're doing this. I don't need to go to birth class. I'm not having a baby. Why do I need to go to all these checkups? I just sit there. Nobody talks to me anyway. I'm going to do me. So those guys, I say Miss on the right hand side of Jerk Fill, and neither one of these guys is a hundred percent wrong, but they're out of balance. And that's where that ping ponging back and forth, and that's where it just can be so frustrating for the guy I experienced. I often had one foot in Wimpy Town and one foot in Ville, like, I'll do whatever, just tell me. And as a mad. So that's not really you're succeeding by any metric. If you are spending a lot of time in the dud zones there, I call those. So you're going to be in them. But the trick is to quickly recognize it and then reorient to that higher aspiration of dads own thriving and start to take those steps up and out of the dud zones to get back on that journey to dads own thriving.

Dr. Nicole (14:31): Gotcha, gotcha. So it's just really like you said about finding that balance. Of course you want to be helpful, but you don't want to turn into a yes dear constantly kind of thing. And you also don't want to be an ass, and suddenly

David (14:50): Sometimes you can't see the space between those two things. So you just have to kind of push your way gently forward into and create it yourself. That's the challenge. There isn't a trail so much as a goal you have to experientially work your way towards.

Dr. Nicole (15:05): Definitely, definitely. So you talk about something else that I like this concept of teaming up versus teaming out. What do you mean by that?

David (15:15): So that's one of the things that I really strongly recommend. So in my work I talk about big ideas which are, Hey, think about things this way. It'll be more helpful. And then I have more specific action steps like call dad, tips of try this out. And so that's big idea number eight, which is teaming up versus team out. And what I mentioned that is because, and this is where I struggled so much, a lot of times us guys think we're being great teammates, especially if we're coming from a sports background where I'm doing my thing and you're doing your thing. So if you're playing football, if I'm the wide receiver, I'm lining up on the outside and if I'm the offensive lineman, I'm down in the deep end of the pool, right there in the middle, getting dirty, pushing people around, and if I'm the wide receiver, I don't need the offensive lineman to run out next to me and vice versa.

(16:02): We have a signed role. Stay in your lane, do your job. That's what team means for us. And so when we want to team up in pregnancy, we start doing a bunch of different things, not connecting with our partner, not working with her and not actually teaming up with her. So that's where that distinction, again, it's like, oh, I didn't think about these things this way. So when my wife is saying, Hey, do you want to go to bye-Bye baby this weekend to go look at the registry. Well, the first time, yes, the second time, sure, the third time, not really, and the fourth time, no, no, I still don't know anything about these teething rings. I don't really care what color onesie we get, and no, I don't want to do that. No, but that's not the question. The question she's asking is, will you team up with me today and enjoy thinking about planning for and being excited about the fact we're going to be parents?

(16:56): It's like, oh, that's a different question. While I still don't want to go to bye, baby, I do want to be an awesome partner. I do want to team up with her and connect. I talk about us being on different journeys. I want to do some bridge building to bridge my journey, which is me. I'm not a dad yet, even until baby gets here. It's how most of us think about and the fact that she's a mom now. So how do I bridge as I team up with her and I connect with her and I share in her journey, and then at times I'll ask her to allow me or remind her that I'm on my own journey and I'm still going to play basketball with my buddies at two o'clock. So I talk a lot about how to balance your teaming up and teaming out contributions by being explicit about the language, but then also reminding, especially the guys that listen for that, will you team up with me about baby and feel into my space? That's the real question, not so much picking up paint chips or looking at cribs or whatever the thing may be that you may not technically have an active interest in doing.

Dr. Nicole (17:59): Again, super important and being able to communicate that clearly and listen active listening. It sounds like for those clues and tips that there's maybe a little bit more there than what you're hearing. It's not just about, like you said, picking out paint chips. It's about connecting on this journey together. Next up is what are some things that you see that, what if you had to describe two or three things that dads really worry about, worry about, or have challenges with as they move into fatherhood? What are those top two or three things that you see?

David (18:35): So I mentioned the bouncing back thing earlier in our conversation about a lot of guys, oh, when baby gets here, I'm going to jump in real early initially and help, but then I'm going to bounce back. I'm going to go back to the dude zone. I'm going to do all these things. So I say, no, no, no, no, we're not bouncing back. Time doesn't stand still, we're bouncing forward. So it's not about reconnecting with the dude zone activities, it's about bouncing forward and really having a real conversation with yourself and your partner. What are your new priorities here? Assuming being an awesome parent and partner is at the top, how much time and effort and energy do you really want to devote to those things you used to do? Some of them are your core identity structures or those things are really important to your physical mental health.

(19:24): If you like to work out a lot, and you're not just going for Mr Universe, but it's just a part of your being. You want to make sure you're reconnecting and maybe you don't get an hour a day, you get an hour three days a week or what that is, but finding a way to stay connected in a meaningful and supportive way while also making room for the new responsibilities and opportunities of what does it mean to be as parents together? What does date night look like if there is such a thing? What are we doing together as a family? So that bouncing forward is one of 'em. And the second thing I'll mention here, Dr. Nicole, I think is really important is so many guys are tentative in that space of new fathers. They sort of sit back, I don't know. And that comes from a lot of different reasons, which you probably don't have time to get into today, but there's not. They sort of ease back and are expecting mom to have taken a more active leadership role. And again, I understand, appreciate that impulse, but what I encourage my guys to is to really step forward and really embrace the idea of being a leader in the relationship, not the leader of, but a leader in where you are an active copilot. And this starts literally right when baby's born, obviously give mama her skin to skin hour that golden hour first, but then get yours, get right in there,

(20:42): Snuggle up with baby. You want baby to bond with you as also primary caregiver, not that other guy over there. And get in early, create those shared agreements with your partner on how are we going to change diapers? How are we going to do feeding? How are we going to do bedtime? How are we going to do all these things? So you have those shared agreements. I tell the guys, you're now empowered to act as a leader in this relationship as an active copilot, as an equal partner. You can't do the breastfeeding. We could do everything else. And you should be aspirationally oriented to wanting to do all those things and do them well. You want baby to comfort and soothe in your arms just as easily as they do in mamas, except when they're hungry. Then you're kind of out of luck on that one for a while.

(21:29): But everything else, step up and be that leader and don't sit back on the sidelines, don't wait to be told what to do or don't try to guess, and then she's going to look at you. Why are you doing it that way? And you're like, I don't know. And now you guys are bickering. You're both tired and under fed. So really embrace that connection, that opportunity to step up as a leader, as a co-parent, as primary caregiver also. And the more you create those strong bonds of connection, both with baby in that timeframe, but also with your partner that timeframe, the more you are all bouncing forward as a family together versus mama feeling alone, you feeling under informed of what to do, you're both sort of stressed out, nobody's happy. That's just a much rougher place to start. And sure you're going to have those moments, but the more you sort of preemptively address them and know how to proactively respond to them by embracing your role here, your responsibilities, the better it's going to be for everybody, especially you in the long run. That's a big part of dad's own thriving, is feeling proud of your ability to parent your baby and to be a great

Dr. Nicole (22:31): Partner. Definitely. Definitely. And it sounds like to some level, you're helping, I don't know if give permission is the right expression, but definitely support that. Yeah, it's normal for you to get in there and change some diapers. There's still some societal expectations. I think we've gotten better, but there's still a little bit of this like, oh my God, you're a dad and you change diapers. That's crazy. You know what I mean? Or you're like doing the bottle, what? What's going on? So you're saying this is normal, get in there, you got this, you can do this.

David (23:04): And the more you do that and the more you own it, again, one of the things that, and this covers into all my coaching work, so much of our origin stories are these foundational moments. They come about as a response of being challenged when things are happening to us, oh, this happened and this happened, but then I made a choice. And when you make that choice and you own the choice and you step into the role, now you're empowered. Now this is your story. Now the story is what you are doing versus what's happening to you. So becoming a father is being challenged. Newsflash, things are happening to you, but the question is, how are you going to respond? How are you going to step up? How are you going to step in? And when you own it and you say, I'm choosing to connect with my baby and partner this way, I'm owning this opportunity and I'm going to step up and step in and make the most of it.

(23:54): Now, when you're feeding your baby, I love baby wearing devices. I used to wear my kids all the time on my chest and I was so happy. They were happy. So you're out wearing your baby smiling and some other guy might look at you like, oh, what's he the mom? Or something, and then they may see how happy you are, and they're like, oh, it actually looks pretty cool, man. Good for him. You're giving them the opportunity to see fatherhood as a success story that you're living. Versus fatherhood is the guy who's struggling and dropping the diapers and he's dropping the bag and his wife's over there huffing and puffing and he's frustrated. She's frustrated. There's plenty of that. But being the guy who's taken that lead, by being a leadership in your relationship, you're also leading the cultural conversation. What does fatherhood look like? What does success look like? And you're not having that conversation explicitly, but you're living that example of that engaged father that everybody looks at. And after they might get over their initial cultural surprise, they're like, actually, that's pretty awesome. Good for him. Good for them. That's great.

Dr. Nicole (24:56): Love it, love it, love it. Now, I don't want to bring the conversation down, but I do think it's something, the tip that we need to talk about is how often do you see fathers have issues with mental health and postpartum depression or anxiety surrounding pregnancy or having a new baby?

David (25:15): I'll be frank with you here, Dr. Nicole, that's the guys that I usually, that's the biggest percentage of first time calls I have with my client base. They're coming in really, they're coming in defeated. They're like, oh, David, I saw your book on my shelf along with these six other books. I never read it. My baby's two months old.

(25:37): I am a mess. I'm a mess. So I usually see, I mean, I get plenty of guys that I catch the earlier, the better then we can start being proactive. But that's often that random email I'll get, or that random schedule that'll pop up in my calendar is guy who's just in the weeds and struggling and he's in that space. And so it's a lot more common than people tend to think because one of the challenges, again, with their culture masculinity, is we're not encouraged or allowed to be vulnerable, to be struggling, especially as new fathers. I heard this myself. I've heard so many stories of guys who are like, Hey, I'm having a hard time. And then they're being reminded, well, you didn't have the baby. Your job as a new dad is to suck it up. And it's like that may be true in the abstract, but it's not helpful or relevant to the man who's trying to open up and share his vulnerability and where he is struggling, where he needs for help.

(26:31): There's not a lot of willingness to be sympathetic to men that are struggling in the pregnancy space, birth space, or anywhere else, frankly. So that's where I see that a lot, and that's where I feel most engaged and excited about my work because number one, I say, Hey, number one, you're a human. You're allowed to be messy. You're allowed to be vulnerable. This is a place where you can melt down and literally sob into the camera for 10 or 15 minutes if that's in the way of you being able to verbalize and let's talk about what's going on. Sure. But most of these guys are excited and thrilled once we connect and establish a rapport and they feel that I'm actually interested and willing and able to hear the genuine honesty of their struggles because they want action steps. Like I mentioned initially. We want to be able to do stuff that's going to help things be better for ourselves and our family around us.

(27:19): And that's real where the real work and where the energy can come up. So where I see, I guess I'll wrap up here, this where I see that, I see it common quite commonly, but I see it shift so quickly when they feel like they have some ability to change their circumstances, they feel they have some ingredients to start making their experience different, to change what's happening with them. They have some action steps they can employ right away to start shifting the energy around them. And so those calls usually end a lot better than they start, thankfully. Well,

Dr. Nicole (27:50): Good, good, good, good, good, good. So let's go through and just do some tips or quick things that people can do and we'll break it down by trimester and stage and kind of run through and give folks some practical action items to take away. Why don't we start with what are some things or what is one thing you recommend that dads should be doing in the first trimester?

David (28:11): So the first trimester, I think the biggest part of that is discovering that you're going to be a dad. It's like, oh, we see that positive pregnancy test and all of a sudden we're like, oh, cool, I'm going to be a dad and 6, 7, 8 months later. And that's correct, but that's not what your partner's thinking. She is like, I am a mom right now. Right now I need to pour a pouring out the wine glass. When I see the positive pregnancy pop up, I'm changing my habits, changing my food. I'm researching folic acid and vitamins and what kind of cheese and meats can I eat or not eat? So she goes into the mom zone. Her journey to the mom zone has already started. She's playing ketchup now. But for us guys, we're not there yet. And so understanding, appreciating that from here until forever, you're on slightly different journeys when you both become parents, they kind of sync up again.

(28:59): But again, she's had a nine month head start at this point and now you're like, oh my God, I'm a dad. It's like, yeah, dude, you've seen this happen. Why are you surprised? So I would say understanding that you're on these separate journeys and then cultivating an aspiration to build those bridges across that journey and be curious about the other person's experience and be willing and honest to share both what you're excited about, but also what your kind of concerns, especially for the guys like, Hey, if you have some concerns, it's okay to be honest and invite conversation. You're not going to hurt the baby by bringing up things. You're a little bit uncertain about the action step, I would say, and this is where I feel this can be super helpful here, is don't look at pregnancy in terms of months. That's sort of like the larger pop culture.

(29:42): But as you know, all too well, let's talk about weeks. It's all about weeks. So I say, guys know the weeks of the pregnancy. So when you're, you're seeing somebody, oh, we're pregnant. How far along are you can say, oh, 13 weeks or seven weeks, or we just found out, we think we're like seven or eight, whatever that is. But you need to know that. And the best way to know that is to bond with your partner and do one of those random every week. You can sit down, you see a little video, they tell you what's going on with baby. They use these different comparisons of French pastries or small tropical marsupials or all kinds of funny things. There's even one out there called baby size for car guys, which uses different car parts as like, this is how big your baby

Dr. Nicole (30:21): Is.

David (30:22): But again, a lot of guys are like, well, David, I don't really care if the baby's big as a battery or it's got eyelashes correct and connecting with your partner and sitting down each week and watching the video together, talking about what's going on, making a note in the calendar. Like we're at week 12. We're at week 13. That's the true value of this experience. So this is a great thing to do as soon as you set a positive pregnancy test, look at the apps or the things for tracking the weeks and start thinking along those terms. Gotcha.

Dr. Nicole (30:51): So what about either second or third trimester, whichever one you want to do. What about something in one of those trimesters?

David (30:57): So I'll go a second trimester here because that's teaming up. We talked about that earlier. This is where this is really going to become important, especially after that 20 week ultrasound. You're going to know if you're having, assuming you want to know, you're going to know if you're having a boy or girl, you can start to make some more decisions about what kind of clothes you're going to buy or the nursery decor, all those kinds of things. So this is where teaming up can be really powerful. And I remind the guys, you get extra credit. If we're looking at this at credit way of being in the one, the ideas, so early in the week, I always remind the guys, why don't you suggest, Hey, babe, now that we know we're having a girl, why don't we go to the paint store and look at some navy blue?

(31:32): We had talked about navy blue as a great color for the nursery, but then don't stop there. You want to make sure you're tracking what your plans are for the weekend. So you can say, why don't we go on Saturday? Because Sunday, I want to watch the football game. The Eagles are playing, and I want to watch that on Sunday. So let's go Saturday. And now you can also add in that little thing that everybody's going to enjoy and we can hit that new cheeseburger place out afterwards. We've been talking about it. So now she looks at you as somebody who knows what's going on, interested in connecting with her, but you've also established the boundaries around what your time is for the things that are important to you. And now you're not waiting till Saturday. And she's like, let's go to the place. And you're like, ah, oh, well, the guys were coming over. I don't want now you're the one playing defensive there. So be the one to initiate those conversations and you can get that win-win win by really making sure you're clear about what the boundaries are around your time and making some good offers to connect with her on that journey to parenthood that you're both on together.

Dr. Nicole (32:29): Yes, yes, yes. That's excellent. It helps you to, like you said, you're still maintaining your own sense of who you are and the things that are important to you, but you're also building that relationship and how things are going to be with your new family.

David (32:41): Exactly. You're setting those patterns in place early that you can build on. And again, these are all things that are working for everybody. This isn't you fighting against the system to keep your things like, no, no, this is you just advocating for what's important to you as you would expect any grownup to do, and then offering to connect in ways that are workable for the other person so that you can build that relationship as again, as people who are going to be parents together. She's already a mom, you're not a dad yet, but soon your baby's going to be here. And as I say to everybody, nothing is easier once baby arrives. For

Dr. Nicole (33:11): Sure. That's very true. All right. What about during labor and delivery? What's the tip that you have there?

David (33:18): So this is something I really want to push against some of the cultural expectations. So a lot of the times when guys are taking birth classes or whatever, especially if they're trying to be active, they start to learn a little bit more about what's going on, some of the risks, some of the choices they make, and they get a little bit worried and all of a sudden they're being told, you need to protect the room. You need to watch your partner, you need to do all these things. And I say, no, you don't. That's not your job. Your job is not to be the backup ob, your job is not to be the backup nurse. Your job. That's not your job. Your job is to be the partner. So what I tell the guys is to make sure you're being part of the conversation of creating that birth team.

(33:58): So you're connecting with the OB or the doula or whoever, your birth photographer, whatever your team is, but making sure you're connecting with them and you're letting them know what you want to do, which is I want to be present for my partner. So I say, number one, make sure you have a good team and that your role as partner is clearly defined and shared by everybody. And then when you're in that role of partner, your mantra for the whole process is be attentive, be calm, and then you can think about being competent. But the first two are so critical. Be attentive to your partner, 100% engaged, put the phone away. If I see you on Facebook in the corner of your phone when your wife is laboring, we're going to have a problem. You are not doing anything correctly if that's what's happening. Sure, what does she need from you?

(34:42): She needs you to be sitting next to her, paying attention to her. Imagine you're on, this is your honeymoon on steroids. This is her biggest moment in her life. What are you doing? And then be calm a lot more about this, about all these things, frankly, than I do. But the oxytocin is nature's way of making this easier and adrenaline is nature's way of making it harder or stopping it if necessary. So whatever. Your partner's probably feeling a lot of adrenaline. This is scary. Like she's having a baby. This is a lot. So your goal is to be the calming loving presence to help bring some of that oxytocin loops into place, staring in her eyes like, you're awesome. I love you. This is amazing. Holding her hand, rubbing her back. And this is where having your doula there, your doula can help you. Your doulas, dude, hire doula dad. Tip number seven, the strongest recommendation, making the whole book. She can help you be more successful. Absolutely. And your goals, being attentive, being calm, and then being competent as needed to hold a leg or wipe a brow, whatever. But let the team support you in your role. And don't imagine you need to be the one actively engaged with all of the professionals that they do this all the time. Let them do their job. You do yours, which is your partner.

Dr. Nicole (35:56): Sure, sure. Love it, love it. So then what about postpartum? What are your thoughts there? And you say that this is probably the most important part. I can guess why you say that, but why is this most important and what's your tip about postpartum?

David (36:08): So now you're officially a dad, your baby is here, and now you can really jump in actively rather than orienting to and connecting with your partner. And sure, you can always talk to your baby when they're in the womb, but it's not like a two-way street there. So now baby is here. Get in and do all the things. As we spoke about a little bit earlier in the conversation about getting your skin to skin, creating those shared agreements about baby care. How are we going to swaddle the baby? You're going to change 'em this way. I mean, babies are really small. They're not the chubby three month olds. We see on the pictures, they are small and they are delicate, and we want to be ginger and careful, but we also want to be confident. So how are we going to do these things? So stepping in early is a big part of the mantra of that fourth trimester, that postpartum, which I call protect and serve, which is really own this opportunity and really just jump in.

(36:58): Your partner literally just ran three marathons. She had a baby that was difficult. She's tired, and that's an existential transformation. Her journey is from maidenhood to motherhood. You're on your dad's own thriving, but now she's a mother. And this is one of the core universal experiences that unite humans across time as becoming a mother. And this is powerful. These are deeply transformative energies and understand and appreciate that this journey for her wasn't just the 12 or 16 or 20 hours of labor. That was the crux of the journey. But what does it mean to be a mom? What does it mean for her to be a mom? This is a question that she has to live into that answer. So it's not so much about what happened, it's how we understand what happened. So being a supportive presence in this sort of novel time for her as she's learning, what does it mean to be a mother?

(37:52): It's like when a caterpillar turns into a butterfly, it doesn't just burst out of the cocoon or fly away, it crawls out. It's laying there exhausted, and the wings take time to unfold and firm up. So it's a timeframe. Those three months that I really try to stress to the guys, whatever's happening here is not forever, it's just for right now. But really jump in there. Lean in. This is a place to really miss on the left side of doing everything that you can to be helpful and supportive and really showing up as that great dad you want to be even when you're tired. This is, I say, look, I know it's hard, but you do kind of need to suck it up. Just right now. I'm not going to say this every day, but for right now, take a deep breath, recognize it's hard, and then back in there, this is the choice you can make, is to step in even when it's hard. So this is a really delicate time here.

Dr. Nicole (38:40): Okay. I love it. I love it. And then the last thing we'll talk about before we wrap up is there can be some scary moments, and I know you talk about those in more detail, but give me one scary moment that could happen in a way that you feel like dad should step up to support or just how to approach a scary moment.

David (39:00): So there's five main ones I talk about, but since we were just talking about childbirth, and that's kind of where you're always, this is the reality you live in. I would just, the scary motel the guys is that childbirth rarely goes as planned. So you have your birth plan and you got all these ideas, and then reality happens. And reality could be difficult, especially because it's going to be different than the plan. So I remind the guys like, childbirth is hard. It's hard for your partner. It's hard. It can't be easy, I've heard, but it's usually there's some stress and it can be a little bit challenging, especially when you're not used to seeing your partner laying there or writhing in pain and struggling and she's just having a really hard time and the guys want to, she's says, it hurts. What can we do?

(39:49): They get themselves all wrapped up. And again, that's an honest feeling. But I remind them, imagine you're in the crowd watching your wife run by or your partner run by in a marathon and she's just having a hard time. She's sweating, she's crying. It's just not a good time. She's on mile 24. What are you doing? You're like, yeah, you could do it. All right, you're clapping, you're cheering, you're connected to her experience, but you're not going to jump the berry and run in and grab her and carry her to the finish line. So with childbirth, I say, it's going to be scary that you're going to have scary moments, but this is why you invested in that birth team. This is why you hired a doula. This is allow them to do your job, their jobs, and be present and connect with a partner.

(40:33): And the calmer you can be, even as everything is getting really scary, and sometimes births get, they go from emerging to emergent. Again, this is a place to be calm. This is a place to trust the professionals that you've intentionally picked to be on your team and allow them to do their job and figure out how you can be supportive of them as well. But it's scary. And so I just want to allow them to be afraid and to be worried and to be concerned, and then to remind them. That's the challenge. What's the choice you're going to make? And the choice I recommend is to take a deep breath, be attentive to your partner, be present with her, and be a calming influence, because sometimes that alone can change the whole tenor of everything that's going on in the room. Surprising everybody. So that's one I'll highlight here as I think as a way to kind of tie a bow around the conversation we've been

Dr. Nicole (41:26): Having today. Excellent. Yep. Excellent. Excellent. So then as we wrap up, what is the most frustrating part of your work?

David (41:33): Honestly, Dr. Nicole, I think I'm still frustrated how little broader cultural awareness there is for the fact that this is a big opportunity to help men on their own journeys, to step up into fatherhood, to show up as the better versions of ourself. We want to be and be encouraged to be vulnerable in these challenging times and to connect and ask for help. And when you do so to be rewarded by being given empathy, appreciation, and help. So I feel I'm still frustrated with where we are as a culture. We've gone so far in the past eight years since my son turns eight in a couple weeks here. So from where I was eight years ago to where we are now, it's way better. But still, we have so much more work to do. Yeah,

Dr. Nicole (42:17): I agree. I agree. On the flip side, what's the most rewarding part of your work?

David (42:21): Honestly, it's just the individuals that I'm working with. When I see them coming in, especially if that first call, they're like, they're showing up. They've just gone 12 rounds with Tyson. They're beat up. They're just not in a good space. And then after being able to work with them and connect with them, we work together on some action steps and some things that they can, experiments that they can run to try again their own life. They need to live into what works for them. So I'm not like, oh, just do these three things. It's like, what about this? Let's try this. But as they start to build that success and they build that inner confidence and they start to see that it's not always going to be what it's been, but there's a way forward and they're the ones that are making that happen. So they have that self-confidence come up. They see a brighter future with them being the awesome parents. They want to be the awesome partners, but also the awesome individual and keeping their own goals, personal, professional, intact, and not just off to the side, but also in the forefront. And then I meet with them after a couple of sessions and hearing how well things are shifting. That's its own validation. That always feels

Dr. Nicole (43:27): Great. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And you've already given so much great advice for folks, but if you had to pick one favorite piece of advice or one thing you want people to really take away, what would it

David (43:37): Be? I would say to do what they can do to look at this in that challenge choice framework and see that the challenge here isn't all the little things that are happening, although those can be challenging. The challenge here is how can I understand this phase of my life as an opportunity to really take that big step up into this next phase of my life as a father? This is a archetypically powerful role that has existed from Time Memorial. And it's not just the way it's talked about in the pop culture, like, oh, we better throw your golf clubs away, blah, blah, blah. It's this sort of 18 to 30 5-year-old advertising culture. We're sort of stuck in, doesn't look at fatherhood in the correct way. So I would encourage them to see the challenges. How can I embrace this as an opportunity? And then the choice is, how can I take this challenge and handle it not seriously in sober like, oh, we're pregnant.

(44:31): I got to be really serious. Well, not really, but how about sincerely? How about bringing a sense of sacredness into this opportunity, then also bringing some humor into it. I'm a pretty funny guy. I crack jokes in my book, and I think there's room for humor in fatherhood, and that's what us guys tend to bring. There's a little study that, again, the details are too big for right now, but the idea being that these same oxytocin loops that activate mom's brains and they're snuggling their brand new baby and sniffing their hair and cuddling and staring at them, those activate for us when we're playing with our babies. So again, how are you going to play with a three week old? You're not going to throw 'em around or whatever, but you can sit there and activate what feels like play. Are they going to grip your fingers and you pretend they're riding a motorcycle? Are you going to make funny faces? But if you can activate that play component and bring that humor in, that's going to help you better connect with your baby, even as they're so little, but especially as they get older. So really honor your own sense of humor and playfulness as a significant contribution you could bring. That's going to again, help everybody really congeal as this new family unit going forward.

Dr. Nicole (45:42): Nice. Nice. So where can people find you all? Tell us about all of the resources you have, all of that stuff, please.

David (45:49): Great. So the best way to find me is just write at www.welcometofatherhood.com that has all my stuff on there. I have a podcast I'm a co-host of called Baby Talk with Katie and David. I have the welcome to Fatherhood book that we've alluded to here. And most excitingly, I finally have put all that stuff into a video course that's now available. There's a couple different tiers. There's just the video course package, but then there's some packages that have coaching sessions built in with me to help you work your way through some of those more scary moments, building out your map to the dad zone, and what does dad zone thriving look like. And here for your listeners today, Nicole, I think it would be nice to share a discount code with them. Yes,

Dr. Nicole (46:30): Yes, please.

David (46:31): Yeah, if you use Dr. Nicole, Dr. N-I-C-O-L-E, no spaces 30, Dr. Nicole 30 at checkout, you'll get 30% off the price of all of those digital products and courses, everything that's on the site, I'll leave that up there for a while here. So it can be kind of an evergreen opportunity for your listeners whenever they discover this show. Yes. But whatever we could do to get the word out. So just email me a David at Welcome toDavid at welcometofather.com. I'm always happy to hear your stories, get your questions, even if you disagree with that's something I say, great, let me know. Everything is learning, so let me know where you like what I say, where you don't.

Dr. Nicole (47:10): Yeah. Well, thank you so much and thank you for that discount code. That was very generous of you. I'm so glad you came back to the podcast. This is such an important topic, and I don't know when this comes out. I don't know if you all will be able to hear it. Can you hear my dog barking in the background?

David (47:24): I heard a little wolf back then. Yes.

Dr. Nicole (47:27): She's just getting excited something. But let me get back to it. As I was saying, thank you for coming onto the podcast, coming back onto the podcast. I just really love your approach about expanding the way we think about masculinity and the way dad's approach fatherhood in order to be the best version of themselves, not just for their family, of course, for their family, but for their own growth and personal development too. So I really appreciate your approach and everything that you had to share today.

David (47:59): Awesome. Thanks again for having me on. I enjoyed it.

Dr. Nicole (48:08): Wasn't that a useful episode? I really appreciate David coming back onto the podcast. Now, after every episode when I have a guest on, I do something called Dr. Nicole's notes where I talk about my top take waste from the conversation. Here are my Dr. Nicole's notes from my conversation with David. One is there's just something about men helping men that I think is important. It's similar to how women help women. I know we're in a stage in society where gender is starting to be a bit more fluid in a way, but there is something about men connecting with men to help each other be better men, be better fathers. I really like that. And along those same lines, I appreciate the redefining of masculinity. I think we've gotten better over the years of expanding masculinity. And it's not just about traditional male roles. Dads can get in there too.

(49:04): Dads can change diapers, dads can feed, dads can wear babies, dads can do hair. Even my husband Falcon actually was the one who did my daughter's hair for school like 99% of the time. So it's really important to redefine and expand roles for masculinity, and it doesn't take away from being a masculine and being a man. And then the third thing I want to say is you need to think about what type of role your partner will play. This is a little different than what David said, but your partner may be comfortable with being an advocate or maybe not. Don't assume. Certainly some cases or many cases even, however you want to put it, dads do feel comfortable being advocates in the birth space. And I'm specifically talking about during labor and birth, even during pregnancy to some extent. But some dads may not be the ones to step in there and advocate.

(50:02): They may not feel comfortable with that, and that's okay. I actually have a birth story coming up where a dad didn't necessarily feel comfortable, or the mom didn't feel like he was the best person to advocate for her. So she hired a doula. And again, that's totally okay. It doesn't have to be a doula. It could be a family member, it could be a friend. So just decide what type of role your partner is going to play during that birth experience and then roll with it. Okay. So there you have it. Please share this podcast with a friend and subscribe with the podcast wherever you're listening to me right now. You can also leave me a review on Apple Podcast. I love to hear what you think about the show. I do shout outs from those reviews from time to time. Also, you can let me know what you think on Instagram. I'm on Instagram @DrNicoleRankins. My dms are definitely open. And do check out the birth preparation course, you and your partner can do it together, drnicolerankins.com/enroll. Use the code, Dr. Nicole to get an additional 10% off. So that is it for this episode. Do come on back next week and remember that you deserve a beautiful pregnancy and birth.