Ep 277: Repurposing the Pain of Infant Loss with Founder & CEO of Chasing the Rainbows, Bernice Quesenberry

Dr. Nicole (00:00): October is pregnancy and Infant loss awareness month, and in this episode, you're going to learn about some excellent resources for pregnancy and infant loss from Bernice Queensbury, the founder of Chasing the Rainbows. Welcome to the All about Pregnancy and birth podcast. If you're having a baby in the hospital, you are giving birth in a system that too often takes away power from women over what happens in their own bodies. I'm Dr. Nicole Calloway Rankins, a practicing board certified OBGYN, who's had the privilege of helping well over a thousand babies into this world. I've been a doctor for over 20 years, and I'm here to help you take back your power, advocate for yourself, and have the beautiful pregnancy and birth that you deserve. This podcast is for educational purposes only, and it's not a substitute for medical advice. Check out the full disclaimer at drnicolerankins.com/disclaimer. Now, let's get to it.

(01:02): Hello there. Welcome to another episode of the podcast. This is episode number 277. Whether it is your first time listening or you have listened before, I am so grateful that you're spending some time with me today in honor of October being pregnancy and Infant loss awareness month. In this episode, we have secondary infertility and baby loss survivor Bernice Queensbury. Bernice has repurposed her pain by starting a national nonprofit called Chasing the Rainbows that offers trauma-informed free, yes, completely free support services, uniting all infertility, pregnancy loss, and infant loss survivors losing her infant daughter in her arms and leaving the hospital empty armed along with her pregnancy after loss with her Rainbow Baby is what drove Bernice to leave her thriving insurance brokerage career to start chasing the rainbows in September of 2022. Their free support services include virtual support groups, peer mentors, therapy, care packages, resources for the entire family, and more.

(02:20): We have an incredibly informative conversation about the statistics surrounding pregnancy and infant loss, what that grief journey may look like for someone who experiences a loss, things you can do to support someone who's had a pregnancy and infant loss, as well as things you absolutely should not do when someone has a pregnancy and infant loss. This is an episode that I hope you never need, but if you do or you know someone who might need it, then it's here with all of these amazing resources to help you. So without further ado, let's get into the conversation with Bernice, the founder of Chasing the Rainbows. Thank you so much, Bernice, for agreeing to come onto the podcast. I am really so excited that you reached out particularly during this month of October, which is pregnancy and infant loss awareness month. I don't know if I said that right. You can correct me, but the work that you do is just really so important. So thank you for coming onto the podcast.

Bernice Quesenberry (03:34): Well, I can't thank you enough, Nicole, for having me, and when I did reach out, I just love everything that you're doing, the awareness that you're bringing in the community, and it really is something about sharing and bringing awareness around different things with maternal health, women's health, and it just means so much. So thank you.

Dr. Nicole (03:53): Yeah, thank you. So why don't you start off by telling us a bit about yourself and your work and your family if you'd like.

Bernice Quesenberry (03:59): Yes, absolutely. I'm Vernice, born and raised right outside of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. We have four children. My husband and I met later in life, and I am the founder and CEO of a national 501C3 nonprofit called Chasing the Rainbows. And prior to founding Chasing the Rainbows in September of 2022, I was a large commercial insurance broker with a lot of large companies. And so yeah, with that experience and sales and marketing, it kind of has helped me to really dive into chasing the rainbows and create it what it is outside of the family and work life. I love cooking and running is my form of meditation, so I love to be outdoors, just enjoy some jogging.

Dr. Nicole (04:49): Nice, nice, nice, nice. So what led you to go from being an insurance broker to creating, this is a huge switch to creating a nonprofit and starting chasing the rainbows. Tell us about that evolution.

Bernice Quesenberry (05:04): Yeah, absolutely, Nicole. Not ever something I saw myself doing or wanting to do because getting into why, but right who walks away from a thriving insurance career where you're building a book of business and you just turn it in and things like that. But in all reality, my husband and I went through some reproductive challenges. Like I said, we met later in life. I had another son to a previous relationship. We were both never married. When we did get married, we decided we wanted to have more kids. Well, since my son and in my beginning adulthood, I dealt with a lot of cys and fibroids. Coming to find out I had PCOS

Dr. Nicole (05:47): And

Bernice Quesenberry (05:47): Endometriosis, so I'd have some corrective surgeries just to try to get pregnant, and it took us about two years of trying. And then we were able to get pregnant with Brooke, and at 10 weeks pregnant, we ended up, I started cramping. I had blood coming out, so I went to the hospitals into the hospital, and they checked me, and it could have been a miscarriage or placenta planning, they weren't too sure at that time. It was very early in the pregnancy.

(06:15): They basically sent me on my way. Everything looked great. We still had Brooke in there. We didn't find out until later that it was a miscarriage, diving into looking into it further, but regardless, then went on to have a healthy pregnancy. And at 27 weeks, I noticed a cortis sizeable blood that came out. And so I went to my doctors, they sent me for an ultrasound. Everything looked great. They sent me home, said I could cancel my next week's ultrasound, but I wanted to keep it just to get pictures because during emergencies, they don't give you any. So my husband and I went in and they told me that there was no fluid anywhere and that they didn't know what was happening. They didn't know if it was her kidneys not producing fluid or if it was me leaking somewhere. Come to find out I was 27 weeks and five days. They wanted to at least wait until 28 weeks to deliver her, but they were hoping for 36, and I could just be on bed, rest in the hospital and ended after two days, her heart rate just kept tanking, so they knew something was going on in there. So we went in for a C-section, and she was born healthy and thriving at 28 weeks. There was nothing wrong with her. She looked beautiful, completely fine,

(07:20): But come to find out that everybody has old blood behind their placenta, but mine was eroding my placenta, which happens in less than 1% of people. So when they're pulling out everything, it was just in pieces. So I was open for a while and she was growing and thriving in the NICU for five and a half weeks. And then the day before we got the worst phone call of our life, we were told that she was going to be going home in about a week or two. She was growing. She was over five pounds. She was looking great. March 16th, 2021, we got a phone call at 4:00 AM saying that she's throwing up breast milk and we need to come into the hospital. Her belly got hard and she just started to look gray and things like that. We get in, and after six hours of just watching her start to digress, worse and worse, she ended up crashing and then ultimately dying in my arms.

(08:10): Oh my God. Yeah. It's just after that experience, Nicole, as a parent, as a person, and miscarriage, stillbirth, infant loss, all of it is such so quiet and isolating and lonely, really journey when you're first on it. So walking out of the hospital that day without our daughter and thinking that the worst part of that journey was supposed to be me leaving the hospital without her in the NICU and then taking her home, and it just wasn't that. And so leaving that day, they gave me a couple resources like, here's a once a month support group. Here's a once a week, here's this, that it was really hard to keep a calendar of everything that was going on or what I had access to because there wasn't very much.

(08:51): And then from there called 14 trauma therapists saying, if you don't accept my private insurance, I can pay out pocket your 200 $5,500 fee. Whatever it is, please call me back. And I couldn't get a callback. And then we became pregnant after losing Brooke with our Rainbow Baby, and we ended up at Johns Hopkins. And it was interesting when we were there, just realizing too still the lack of services that were happening in 2022, and especially for pregnancy after loss, because that's all you're reliving all your triggers and trauma all over again. So I was fearful something was wrong. I didn't notice there was really anything wrong with Brooke and her situation. So that's how in September of 2022, then I founded Chasing the Rainbows, and it really started out in Pennsylvania. And from there within right after the first year, we became nationwide, and we offer a bunch of various services, daily support services, but it really was because of understanding the traumatic loss of what infant loss, pregnancy loss, any kind of baby loss is, looks like. Just really wanting to support and have that daily release and outlet for those that are struggling to go to

(10:04): And get the comfort and support that they need and seek.

Dr. Nicole (10:07): Wow. I mean, my mouth was open just hearing the story, it's just such a challenging story. I mean, yes, there are challenges with 27, 28 weekers, but most often they survive. I know. Exactly. And then just being told right before that and then everything happening so quickly, I can only imagine how overwhelming that is. I mean, our first daughter was in the NICU for a month, but Well, she's about to be 17.

Bernice Quesenberry (10:33): Oh goodness.

Dr. Nicole (10:35): Yeah. Oh, wow. 17. Yeah, but just can't, it's already an anxiety provoking time

Bernice Quesenberry (10:43): Anyway.

Dr. Nicole (10:44): And then you're at that point, you're in this, you're done with your postpartum, you're not going back to your ob, and then the NICU is like, well, here you go. We are not dealing anything with you anymore because your baby's not here. So

Bernice Quesenberry (11:01): Exactly.

Dr. Nicole (11:02): That's just a really challenging

Bernice Quesenberry (11:04): Time. My leave was cut. I was cleared medically at six weeks. I wanted to be cleared medically too, so that because we thought that she was going to be in the NICU for another two or three weeks, so I didn't want to use all of my maternity leave while she was in the nicu. And you have to make those decisions that you don't think to make, and they were literally consuming you only to come to find out. Then once she passed, they said, yeah, your leaves cut. Now you're medically cleared. You have to return to work in three days. And it's one of those things that it's like, wow, I literally just lost my daughter in my arms. How do you even bounce back from something like that and return to reading contracts or doing things because your whole world shattered?

Dr. Nicole (11:46): It's completely,

Bernice Quesenberry (11:47): Society doesn't really understand baby loss unless you've been through it or you service in that world. And just the trauma of it all and everything around it, all the events.

Dr. Nicole (11:59): I'm always in admiration of people who take such a challenging thing. And what made you take that step to say, I'm going to now start this organization to help others?

Bernice Quesenberry (12:12): Oh my goodness. Well, thanks for saying that. I guess it was for me and Nicole, just I needed to repurpose my pain and I had the support of a lot of people behind me. I kept reaching out to baby loss survivors to talk to them about what they went through and what they've been through. Ones that were years out from their loss, but that I remembered, or people that others would connect me with. Like, oh, hey, I have a sister who went through this loss and those kinds of things. And then realizing how many people actually go through these losses every day. Why aren't we all uniting? And I reached out to a couple nonprofits when we were in the NICU for support and things like that. I really needed a support group or a community of people who understood my marathon holds that I was doing for 12 hours. And then also hearing the beeps and alarms going off all the time and just fearing for her life every day and having those around you. And I said to myself, it just really needs to be that community where anybody can come wherever they need to whenever they need to and get the help that they need.

(13:14): And

(13:15): It really spearheaded that effort just from seeing the lack of the resources in the community.

Dr. Nicole (13:22): So let's get into a little bit about pregnancy and infant loss. And then of course, I want to go through the different services and things that chasing the rainbow offers. So let's just start with some numbers because I don't know that people realize how common this can be. How common is pregnancy and infant loss?

Bernice Quesenberry (13:38): Yeah, I know. And until you become the statistic, do you really even pay attention to it, or unless you're impacted by it by another family, family member or friend. But it happens. Miscarriage specifically one in four, that's 1 million people in the United States a year who are going through baby loss, and that's up to 20 weeks. And then Stillbirth and Nicole, you can talk to that, and still 24,000 babies die a year that are full term or close to. And then also infant loss is 21,000. So when you lump them all together, you're looking at one in four at least, that are going through this. If you include infertility in that, it's really one in three that are dealing with reproductive trauma.

Dr. Nicole (14:21): Yeah, thank you for putting numbers to those context, that context around numbers, because I think sometimes people hear like, oh, it's less than 1%. And then although when you look at overall it may not be that percentage, that percentage may be low, but it still adds up to a lot of people. I mean, every day this is happening multiple times a day, and we're not trying to scare people. We just want people to know that it happens and we need to bring it out of the shadows.

Bernice Quesenberry (14:49): And it's educating to advocate for ourselves. And I think I didn't understand loss either until we started going through, you're not educated on that. You think trying to get pregnant equals getting pregnant equals child since you were little. And when infertility happens and losses and things like that, it's so shocking because nobody talked about in generations before us, and now we're finally vocalizing it and really bringing it out and about as we should, just to know that you can have the support that you need.

Dr. Nicole (15:17): Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So what in your experience have you found, and I know that this can vary, but what are some feelings or what does that grief journey look like after someone experiences a loss?

Bernice Quesenberry (15:30): Yeah, it's really interesting, Nicole. I learned a lot through the process, and I think because I wanted to educate myself with different professionals, trauma therapists or director of services is a trauma therapist. So understanding that the grief journey, the shock and numbness could be the first phase that someone experiences and the searching and yearning and the disorganization and despair, and then the reorganization, rebuilding phase. And I think just really understanding that was huge for me because those feelings that I was going through with the anxiety, the confusion, the sadness, and realizing why my arms ached, because I was really just wanting my baby and to hold her and have her and that happening. And I think also understanding that the beginning phases over time, you will grow larger than your

(16:22): Grief,

(16:22): And it won't be that overwhelming. You're just getting drug and going under the current and keep getting hit by the waves and that it's not going to be like that forever. And that you'll be able to find ways to honor your

(16:35): Baby,

(16:36): Carry on their legacy or do different things that you need to do, but it's not, it's going to be like that forever. Yeah,

Dr. Nicole (16:43): I think that's really important for people to hear, especially the piece about you can honor your baby and still continue to live your life.

Bernice Quesenberry (16:53): Yes.

Dr. Nicole (16:54): I wonder if there's some element of like, oh, if I'm happy, does that mean I'm not sad because I lost my baby? But you can do both.

Bernice Quesenberry (17:02): Oh my goodness, Nicole, it's so interesting that you're saying this because we just put out a social media marketing thing that we made, and it was about living in that duality, the coexisting of things. And I think that was one of the hardest things as a baby loss survivor to do, is learn how to still live a life worth living and happy and joyous and free when you're grieving and feeling this hurt, devastation, shock, just everything all at once and how those come together and you can continue to move forward. You'll never move on.

Dr. Nicole (17:34): And

Bernice Quesenberry (17:35): That was one of the hardest things.

Dr. Nicole (17:37): Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So let's talk about, I want to go through each one of the resources a little bit about what the resources are that you offer and why you offer them. I feel like you're very intentional, the things that you're, we are providing to serve different needs, so we're going to get all into it. Sounds great. Yes. Chasing the rainbows offers multiple different things. Let's start with the first one, which is support groups. So tell us about the support

Bernice Quesenberry (18:03): Groups. So all of our services, first off, our daily, so all of our volunteers are trauma-informed, trained

Dr. Nicole (18:11): Our peers. Can peers tell us what that means? I don't think a lot of people know what trauma-informed means.

Bernice Quesenberry (18:15): Oh my goodness, please. So you go through a series of trainings that actually explains what trauma is, even though we lived it and everything like that, it really dives into how to handle patients or people who have gone through trauma, and also basically not retraumatizing them and being able to provide the support and services the way that they need it. So making it really about them and making sure that we're being aware of when someone's in crisis, when someone needs extra support and making sure that we're connecting them when needed. So that's very important because these are traumatic losses, so we want to make sure that we are helping and not hurting.

Dr. Nicole (18:52): Gotcha. So

Bernice Quesenberry (18:53): It's extremely important.

Dr. Nicole (18:55): So

Bernice Quesenberry (18:56): Yeah, our support groups, we run three a day, so morning, afternoon, and evening. And then right now, two days, we have four groups, and the groups vary from primary infertility, secondary infertility, and trying to conceive after loss,

Dr. Nicole (19:10): Pregnancy

Bernice Quesenberry (19:10): And infant loss, and then pregnancy after loss. And we run right now 17 support groups a week.

Dr. Nicole (19:17): Wow. That is impressive.

Bernice Quesenberry (19:19): Thank you. Thank you. And it's all about their schedules, right? We don't want to say to them, you have to attend six weeks of support groups and you have to attend this many.

(19:28): No,

(19:28): It's not about that. Everybody's so different in their grief journey and trauma journey. So we just want to make sure that if they need a support group, they can hop right in. It's happening at 3:00 PM Eastern standard time or 12 their time, whatever it looks like or evening, and just get that support that they need when they need it.

Dr. Nicole (19:44): Right, right. I love that. I love that. So what about a peer mentor? What is

Bernice Quesenberry (19:48): That? Yeah, so also they're trained peers with similar lived experience, and we want to partner them or pair them with someone who is going through the same experience that they are. So let's say they're a primary infertility survivor. They've had repetitive pregnancy losses, and we want to make sure that we partner them with someone who is years out from their losses, who is trained, and they then do daily check-ins with them to see how they're doing. So they'll either text them, call them, email them. It's really based on how they want it, but it's just letting 'em know that someone's here and thinking of you. So when the questions come up, when they return to work, how many kids do I have when I meet someone new and they're asking me those questions? Or how do I handle the holidays? Or what do you do to remember your baby? And it's just having someone to talk to

(20:32): And

(20:32): To really form your own way, but hearing from others that you're not the only one that's struggling with this.

Dr. Nicole (20:39): I can see how that can be very, very helpful. And it sounds like you definitely try to match people who've had similar

Bernice Quesenberry (20:44): Circumstances. Yes. Yes. Yep. Someone who's childless going through primary infertility, is someone different who has other children going, and it's just dealing with different experiences. It's all the same feelings though.

Dr. Nicole (20:57): Yeah. Yeah. So what about individual trauma therapy?

Bernice Quesenberry (21:02): Yeah, so we were very excited about this. About a year ago. We partnered with a center here, and they do it for all of our survivors in all 50 states. We do trauma therapy. And our director of programs now, Tony is a trauma therapist, and we partner with others where we handle the trauma therapy for them so they don't have to pay out of pocket. They can be seen within two weeks. So we get 'em in immediately. We don't want them to wait, but it's just great because to be in a professional setting, in addition to having a peer mentor or going to support group, it's just that added layer. Some people like the one-on-one counseling, so we want to make sure that we're giving them that too.

Dr. Nicole (21:42): Gotcha. Wait, did you say you're able to financially support them getting therapy?

Bernice Quesenberry (21:48): Oh, we pay for all their therapy. Their therapy's free.

Dr. Nicole (21:50): Oh my God. That is a huge deal. I know.

Bernice Quesenberry (21:55): Thank you, Nicole. Thank you. I was tired. She, I'm making it seem a lot easier than it is. I've been working tirelessly at this for my gosh, a long time. But yes, and Tony, thank goodness for her and just the therapists that service our survivors. But yes, we pay for therapy for all of our services are free to all survivors in all 50 states. We can't emphasize that enough.

Dr. Nicole (22:21): This is really, really impressive.

Bernice Quesenberry (22:23): Oh, thank

Dr. Nicole (22:23): You. And I don't know if this is something you would know about if your therapist, or have you heard of, I've heard a lot of people talk about EMDR in relation

Bernice Quesenberry (22:33): To child therapy. Yes. That is a form of trauma therapy. Yes. It's all about eye movement and recognition, and it all works well together. And it can be a form of therapy. Some people do need it. It works for others, but some it doesn't. I was one of them that didn't need EMDR. It wasn't a good fit for me personally, but try it. And that's the thing, you never know until you try.

Dr. Nicole (22:55): Gotcha.

Bernice Quesenberry (22:56): But there's all different, so we get them evaluated at the highest tier. So trauma therapy that has its own certification, they'll recognize if someone's in crisis or needing trauma support. If they don't, they can do traditional talk therapy with them, but they have the fullest licensure, so we want to make sure that we're getting them evaluated the right way.

Dr. Nicole (23:14): Gotcha. Gotcha.

Bernice Quesenberry (23:15): I

Dr. Nicole (23:15): Love this. Okay, awesome. And then what about, you also have coping care packages, so what is that?

Bernice Quesenberry (23:21): We do. We do. We used to do these in-House, and actually we just started a collaboration with aaliya Action.

Dr. Nicole (23:27): Yes. I've had her on the podcast as

Bernice Quesenberry (23:29): Well. Oh, Liz, is it she Fabulous. Shout out to you, Liz. Yeah, so she already is doing all of the self-care and coping care packages and hospitals and things like that. So it's just been a wonderful fit for us because we don't have to handle 'em. And she's already nationwide too, so it's just a perfect fit for us. So couldn't ask for a better collaboration on that.

Dr. Nicole (23:52): I love that.

Bernice Quesenberry (23:53): So that just came this year, so we're so excited about that. Okay. That's

Dr. Nicole (23:56): Awesome. And it's just a beautiful people working together to help service this population.

Bernice Quesenberry (24:02): It says synergy and energy, and she's already, we have two missions, two organizations, but one common goal, and it really is providing a holistic approach. And so we weren't able to continue to do the care packages. It was getting too much. It was very overwhelming. And so we found her through a mutual connection, and it was just such a perfect.

Dr. Nicole (24:21): Yep,

Bernice Quesenberry (24:21): Absolutely.

Dr. Nicole (24:22): Absolutely. Okay. And then you also offer things to help with what you say is nervous system regulation. So yoga, breath work, meditation. Why is that?

Bernice Quesenberry (24:32): Yes. So for me, I couldn't meditate. I still running's my form of meditation. However, though a lot of survivors were asking for meditation, nervous system regulation, and yoga, because there really wasn't anything specific to these types of

(24:47): Losses.

(24:48): A lot of things out there that's recorded really deals with moving on and letting go. And that's really not what baby loss is. It's about processing, sitting with being with, living with. And so we developed our own with a trauma yoga instructor, and we did it where we have videos and then also live monthly sessions so they can jump in because we are trying to do that holistic approach. And also taking care of your physical health is so important after loss.

Dr. Nicole (25:15): Absolutely.

Bernice Quesenberry (25:16): So if we can give survivors that outlet, or they can access videos when a support group isn't happening or they don't want to talk to a mentor, they don't want to reach out to us on our online community, it's just a way for them to find something else.

Dr. Nicole (25:30): Gotcha. Gotcha. And speaking of online, what are your online groups? You say you have online groups?

Bernice Quesenberry (25:34): Oh, yes. So we have online private community where outside a group and mentorship, they can all get in together on Facebook. It is private. Like we said, you go through the registration process, but they get in there and they talk, and it's really about just coming together and uniting all of us across the nation. So yeah, all of us just talking about things that are happening in our lives

Dr. Nicole (25:55): Or

Bernice Quesenberry (25:56): Things we're experiencing.

Dr. Nicole (25:57): Right. Got it. Got it. And then your podcast, that's the last thing,

Bernice Quesenberry (26:01): Right? Or cried out loud. It's called, it's on all major platforms, but it's all about living after these traumatic losses and what that looks like and parenting after loss, or if someone's on a primary infertility journey, just different things that you're dealing with with these reproductive traumas, and just really having the community behind you and just hearing just different things that we don't think about or know, or until we become a baby loss survivor,

Dr. Nicole (26:27): I mean, these are an amazing resources. And to be a nonprofit, this is just, I feel like this is something that everyone, every hospital needs to know about these types of resources. I know. Thank you.

Bernice Quesenberry (26:38): Nicole says, and it's interesting. Yeah, we'll get into it, I'm sure. But that is one of our biggest struggles is we don't have the time to do all the outreach because we're trying to sound like doctors obs

(26:52): Outside

(26:52): Of the hospitals and then the hospitals in and of themselves and navigating that. It's just we try our best to get out there because we really can. Survivors are finding us at 2:00 AM Google searching support, and some organizations are saying that they're doing different things, but they're just not able to get connected quickly. So we just want to make sure we are getting 'em the connection

Dr. Nicole (27:14): And

Bernice Quesenberry (27:14): Support that they need when they need it and seek it.

Dr. Nicole (27:16): Definitely. Definitely. So well, let's talk about the healthcare system. I take these opportunities of the podcast. Obviously I'm sharing information, but I like to learn things for myself as well. So what are some things that you've noticed within the healthcare system that you feel like we get wrong surrounding

Bernice Quesenberry (27:36): Pregnancy

Dr. Nicole (27:36): And infant loss?

Bernice Quesenberry (27:38): Yes, and please take this, but we do hear this commonality within our support groups from the thousands of survivors we're supporting. But yeah, trauma does start the moment that there's something wrong. So every person that they interact with, everybody on the medical team the whole way along the process of whatever that kind of looks like. We hear a lot of times that they aren't offering trauma-informed care necessarily. They're not really taking that part into

(28:06): Effect.

(28:07): It's more about making sure that if the baby passed, that the baby's out of the mom and the mom's recovering, and that's about it. And not really giving them resources or feeling like they can talk to the medical providing team. And that might be the team's 10th loss of the day, but that's that person's only loss and then in that moment. So I think remembering that and just taking those couple minutes to sit with them while they cry or hold their hand if they allow you to, and just be there and not try to say, well, you can always have other children medically because you can. It looks fine for you too. Don't say that in that moment because they're hearing, then you're saying another replacement baby, this will replace it and it doesn't in addition to. So it's like those kind of things. Another thing is reading the chart and knowing that they've had a previous loss before you meet with them.

(28:59): That's

(28:59): One of the biggest ones that we get feeling like there's no sense of connection to your provider because they're not talking about your loss or mentioning it and finding out how you're doing. And that's really hard. Also, having a separate waiting room or scheduling times for those that are going through loss versus those that are actively pregnant. And it's not about making it that it's about cushioning or really going out of your way to make somebody feel this way. It's just offering that trauma-informed care, take the clients in the morning who might be going through loss and then after lunch, taking the clients in the afternoon who are going active pregnancies. It's making little changes like that, but it's also making that patient feel like they don't need to switch ob g YN offices then, because a lot of times we do, we switch hospitals or obs because our loss happened there, and that's very triggering for us. So by creating this space or doing something more for them, that really makes you feel that trusting and security that you need after a trauma.

Dr. Nicole (30:02): Absolutely.

Bernice Quesenberry (30:02): Absolutely. Yeah. Also going through delivery at the hospital and your baby didn't make it. It's just having a warning or a notice on their door and maybe having them in a separate wing where they're not close to babies crying and hearing families with their babies or seeing them walk the halls with their children.

Dr. Nicole (30:20): It's

Bernice Quesenberry (30:20): Those little things that are so big in those moments that we try to really talk to our medical providers about

Dr. Nicole (30:28): All of those things. Make sense? For sure.

Bernice Quesenberry (30:30): For sure. Yeah. Thanks Nicole for asking.

Dr. Nicole (30:33): So what are some things that people, family members can do to support someone they know who has experienced a pregnancy or infant loss? So what can they do to support? And then we'll also ask on the flip side, what are some things that they absolutely should not do?

Bernice Quesenberry (30:48): Oh, that's good. Yes, I love this. So I would say top three things to support is doing reach outs. Just doing a weekly check-in through text message or a phone call and telling them they don't even need to respond, that you're just thinking of them. What they're going through is traumatic or devastating that you're just there for them as a listening ear. Also just suggesting going for a walk together or just sitting with them to watch a movie in their house. Those are things. The weekly check-ins are the greatest though. And also getting them DoorDash gift cards. I know some people want to feel like they want to give them something. Meals are great too, if someone wants to start a meal train, but those DoorDash gift cards, then they can figure out where they want to eat and just DoorDash food in and not have to leave the house. But just realizing that don't make them feel obligated to need to interact if they don't want to. But just being there and really just as a listening ear is most important.

Dr. Nicole (31:44): And I think sometimes people feel like they don't know what to say, or you can even say that, I'm not sure the right thing to say, but I just want to let you know that I'm thinking about you. It doesn't have to be

Bernice Quesenberry (31:55): Exactly right.

Dr. Nicole (31:55): You

Bernice Quesenberry (31:56): Could say that exact thing. And it's like, thank you. Thank you for at least trying, or thank you for reaching out and thinking of me. It just means the world when you feel like yours is crumbling down all around you. It does.

Dr. Nicole (32:07): So what are some things people should not do? Oh,

Bernice Quesenberry (32:10): Yeah. I

Dr. Nicole (32:12): Know one at least you're going to

Bernice Quesenberry (32:13): Say, I know. I think that everything happens for a reason was really hard to hear because sometimes there are no reasons. And I even catch myself doing it. So something that I started to do, sometimes things happen and you just can't explain it. And this is one of those times, and that's how I pivot it, because it's like, don't say that because the reasoning for my child passing away, there is none.

Dr. Nicole (32:38): Exactly.

Bernice Quesenberry (32:38): Also that this is God's plan. And it's not that people don't believe in higher power or people do clinging to their higher power more when they're going through loss and things like that. But that's for them to decide. And honestly, I struggled really hard with why would my higher power do this to me after we go through loss? And we find some survivors are just like that too. And so you don't know where someone's at spiritually or what they believe in. So that just is not helpful either. And then also you can have more children, and it's like babies don't replace babies, and this is the only type of loss. So if someone loses a parent or grandparent, they don't say, at least you have your other parent. This is the only type of loss that someone

Dr. Nicole (33:19): That's a good point.

Bernice Quesenberry (33:19): Yes. Someone says to you, you can have another baby. It's like, are you kidding me? So I actually started in a very polite manner when people say that to me or have said it, I say, okay, that's basically saying our three living children, if we lose one of them, or if you lose one of your four children or five children, however many you have, then you're okay because you have the other four. You're not at all sad. That's basically what you're saying. And it's just understanding, I think, the language and what that actually means when you're saying it.

(33:48): And

(33:48): These were all candid expressions with great intentions, and people try their best. They want to take the pain away from you when they're seeing you cry. But crying is natural for

(33:58): Grief.

(33:58): And I'm not uncomfortable crying in front of people over Brooke. It's normal. I'm going to be the rest of my life, probably I'm missing one of my children. But I mean, it's okay. You don't need to say anything toxic positive, just because I'm crying. I'm good.

Dr. Nicole (34:12): Yeah,

Bernice Quesenberry (34:13): Yeah.

Dr. Nicole (34:13): Thank you. I think people mean well, and they just, like you said, yes, yes.

Bernice Quesenberry (34:16): Great intention.

Dr. Nicole (34:17): Yeah. They just don't, you have to help them think through that doesn't make sense. Yes. And it's actually hurtful.

Bernice Quesenberry (34:23): That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Because about the law survivors who come after me, it's like, please don't say that to them if you approach somebody else, try this instead or something. And it really is a learning experience because I can't maybe didn't say some of these things in my earlier days when I had friends going through it. So it's hard to know what to do.

Dr. Nicole (34:42): Yeah, yeah.

Bernice Quesenberry (34:43): It's a great intention. And

Dr. Nicole (34:44): Then what are some things that you find, I don't know if I put this in the questions, but it just kind of popped up. When people get to the pregnancy after a loss, what are some things that you see there?

Bernice Quesenberry (34:55): Oh my goodness. So one is the chart reading is huge. They have to keep re-explaining their story each time they're going into their provider, if they're seeing a different doctor. Because normally if you're in a practice with several doctors, they want you to meet with all of them when you're pregnant, because who knows who's going to deliver you if it's a spontaneous delivery. And so I think that's one of the hardest things. I think also providers understanding the anxiety behind it. Something that was beautiful with my pregnancy after loss and my doctor said to me was, this is our job. We're here for you. We're only with you maybe four hours out of the month if you have a once a week appointment. So that's how many other hours that are in that month that we're not with you and seeing what's happening. So please just come in and get checked when you need to be checked, and for peace of mind for us, and peace of mind for you, because we'll never have a hundred percent answers of what happened. And that was huge because you almost feel crazy and an inconvenience that you keep calling and going in to get checked. In all reality, we're not going to have answers. And we already are very uncertain about our bodies because we're living now with all these triggers. Our bodies have failed us, we feel like. And so is this going to happen again because we're already one of those numbers, so are we going to become another statistic?

(36:05): And so it really is about getting that compassionate care and a provider not making you feel crazy for calling in again,

Dr. Nicole (36:12): Definitely

Bernice Quesenberry (36:12): Kind of thing. Yeah,

Dr. Nicole (36:13): For sure. For sure, for sure. So then as we wrap up, and these are questions that I ask everybody, what is the most frustrating part of your work?

Bernice Quesenberry (36:21): It is trying to get in touch with as many doctors as we can and well all medical providers who are in this space. Fertility clinics, because we really just want our services to be with drivers as they're going through their loss, and they're not leaving without knowing us just to alleviate that 2:00 AM, reach out when they're desperate, and it's so heartbreaking when we finally get them. So I think that's one of the most frustrating parts. And then the other is, I think with the hospital setting, sometimes when people are going through their losses is just hearing what's being told to them or how they're being treated in those moments, and it is heartbreaking. Okay.

Dr. Nicole (37:01): Yeah, I can imagine. So then on the flip side, what's the most rewarding part of your

Bernice Quesenberry (37:05): Work? Oh my goodness. I think it really is repurposing my pain and honoring our daughter. It's a way that I can give back to others so they don't have to feel that lonely and isolation feeling like most of us have at one point or another. And I think it is really too, just really all coming together and having that sense of community and feeling like we're validated, hurt, and seen in a safe space, uniting all baby loss survivors. So that really does, just gives me some purpose behind my pain.

Dr. Nicole (37:35): Right, definitely. Definitely. So then, what is your favorite piece of advice that you would like to give related to pregnancy and loss, whether it's to a survivor, whether it's what's your favorite piece of

Bernice Quesenberry (37:47): Information? Yeah, that's great. I would say everybody's trauma and grief journey is so different, but we all share the same kind of feelings, emotions, and life-changing experience as we're living after becoming a lost parent. So it's just so important to connect with your community of baby loss survivors, but also to really get the support and comfort needed to continue living without our children here with us. So not minimizing someone's pain, not allowing them to feel validated, seen and heard. Those are all things that are so important after baby loss. So just finding that and seeking it.

Dr. Nicole (38:20): Gotcha, gotcha. So where can people find you and all of the resources that you offer?

Bernice Quesenberry (38:25): Yeah, so it's easiest to get people connected to services or connected to volunteering if they go to chasing the rainbows.org and they write in on our website, but they can also find us on Instagram at Chasing the Rainbows Inc. But yeah, all of our links are on our website though. It's the easiest way to find us.

Dr. Nicole (38:41): Okay, perfect. Well, thank you so much, Bernice, for coming on and sharing these important resources that I hope people don't need, but if they need them, then you have created such a wonderful platform to serve this population.

Bernice Quesenberry (38:55): Oh, thanks so much, Nicole. And that's what we say. It's so heartbreaking whenever we have a survivor come to us, but we're just grateful that they found us, and we can just wrap everything we can around that.

Dr. Nicole (39:10): Wasn't that a great episode? I so admire how Bernice has taken her pain and turned it into something that has been so helpful for so many in such a difficult life stage. Now, after every episode when I have a guest on, I do something called Dr. Nicole's notes about my takeaways from the conversation. Here are my Dr. Nicole's notes from my conversation with Bernice, and they're really pretty short today. The first one is I want you to know about another episode I have related to stillbirth, and that is with Aaliyah in action. She mentioned it in the episode that they have partnered with Aaliyah in action in order to do care packages, and they do these really great self-care packages for the mom after stillbirth or infant loss. You can listen to that episode with Elizabeth O'Donnell, the founder of Aaliyah in action. That's dr nicole rankins.com/episode 2 2 7, and we will link that in the show notes.

(40:09): And the other thing, and it's just really important for you to hear, if you have experienced pregnancy or infant loss, you are not alone. You don't have to be alone. It can feel very isolating because this is not something that is talked about a lot in mainstream media and culture. I do believe we're getting better at discussing it and understanding and realizing that unfortunately, it is a very common part of people's journey to being parents and life experience. But know that you are not alone. You don't have to be alone. You can reach out to chasing the rainbows to get resources. Another place, a great place where you can get resources is postpartum support international. So please, please know that you are not alone. You don't have to stay alone during this difficult journey. Alright, so there you have it. Please share this podcast with a friend if you think it's something that they may benefit from or share the resources with a friend for sure.

(41:16): Also, please subscribe to the podcast and Apple Podcast or wherever you are listening to me right now, and I would love to hear what you think about the podcast or any thoughts you have about the episode or the show in general. Come find me over on Instagram. I'm on Instagram at Dr. Nicole Rankins. While you're there, go ahead and hit that follow button because you can get great information about pregnancy and birth as well. So that is it for this episode. Do come on back next week and remember that you deserve a beautiful pregnancy and birth.