Ep 294: What Extended Breastfeeding Really Looks Like – A Real Talk Guide with Erin Harris

Dr. Nicole (00:00.214)
What if you're not ready to stop breastfeeding, but you're totally burned out from the constant demands? Or maybe you're thinking you really want to breastfeed for a while, a year, or even beyond. In this episode, I'm talking with Erin Harris, a certified lactation educator and creator of Nursing and Mamas, about the very real and rarely discussed world of extended breastfeeding. Erin shares her personal journey, expert insights, and how setting boundaries can actually strengthen your bond with your toddler.

If you're nursing past that first year or thinking about it, this episode is a must listen.

Dr. Nicole (00:40.322)
Welcome to the Birth with Power podcast where knowledge is power and power transforms birth. I'm Dr. Nicole Callaway-Rankins, mom of two and practicing board certified OB-GYN with over 20 years of experience and nearly 2000 births attended. I've seen firsthand how the hospital system can leave women feeling unheard and uncertain, but that doesn't have to be your story.

Here, you'll get the knowledge, support, and strategies to take charge of your birth experience so you can walk into the hospital feeling calm, confident, and empowered. Note, this podcast is for educational purposes only and it's not a substitute for medical advice. See the full disclaimer at drnoklomerhagens.com forward slash disclaimer. Now let's get to it.

Dr. Nicole (01:29.998)
Hello there, welcome to another episode of the podcast. This is episode number 294, whether it's your first time listening or you've been here before, you know I'm glad you're spending some time with me today. Today's guest is Erin Harris, a certified lactation educator and the creator of Nursing Mamas. Erin holds two master's degrees in health and family communication and blends that expertise

with her own over four year nursing journey to support moms in extended breastfeeding. She helps those who aren't ready to wean, but are overwhelmed with on-demand nursing, showing them how to set boundaries that preserve the bond without leading to burnout. We're diving into what extended breastfeeding really looks like, the emotional ups and downs, setting boundaries, and how to gracefully transition when you're ready to stop.

Whether you're currently nursing a toddler, thinking about tandem nursing, or simply curious about what nursing beyond empathy can look like, this episode is full of encouragement, insight, and real talk. Now, before we get into the conversation, I want to share a recent review that truly warmed my heart. It's from SAEDAHDDS. This was left in Apple podcast and it says,

Dr. Nicole is the balance you need. I found Dr. Nicole's podcast, When Pregnant With My Second, and man, man, do I wish I found her with my first pregnancy. This podcast, in my opinion, is the most informative and unbiased on this platform for learning about all things pregnancy and birth related. I always recommend this to anyone I know who is expecting the balance between her medical knowledge and the fact that she is a mom herself.

her love for both OB-GYN and event-wifery philosophies, the way she supports both natural births and medically supported births. Trust me, this is the balance you need. Thank you, thank you, thank you for that. Hearing that just reinforces why I do this podcast to help you feel informed, supported, and seen wherever you are in your journey. I love it, love it, love it. Truly warm my heart. And I want you to know, I...

Dr. Nicole (03:51.138)
actually read every single review that comes through. They mean so much to me and they help others discover the show too. So if you've been listening and this podcast has helped you, I would love it and be so grateful if you take a minute to leave a review in Apple Podcasts and who knows, I might read your review on a future episode. All right, let's get into my conversation with Erin.

Dr. Nicole (04:16.046)
Thank you so much, Aaron, for agreeing to come onto the podcast. I am so excited to talk about this topic because I've never talked about it before. And honestly, I haven't really heard that much about it. And I suspect the listeners will feel the same. So I'm excited that you reached

I thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to share this subject because a lot of moms I think are in it and just not talking about it.

Yep, definitely, definitely. So why don't you start off by telling us a bit about yourself and your work and your family, if you'd like.

Sure. My name is Erin Harris and I'm a 40 year old mom of two and they are currently five and eight. And so because of that, I was with my younger, a geriatric, you know, mom going in, right? You know, by like two weeks. And I always knew I wanted to breastfeed.

Um, I, I'm a very studious person, so I took all the classes and did all the things and it was still just very blindsided by how difficult it was with my first, but we're both stubborn and it took, it took a while and it was very painful for a while, but we made it through the figuring out the latch and all of that and just kind of kept going and going and going. And so we made it to six months and then I was like, okay, well how about a year? And then how about two years?

Erin Harris (05:39.574)
and then how about through a pregnancy? And we just kind of kept going. And that really kind of led me to what I'm doing today, which is helping extended nursing moms. That was not my profession really pre-COVID. I, for a decade, was a college instructor and I have two master's degrees, one in family communication and one in health communications. So I'm kind of utilizing all of that now to help parents and families learn to

communicate with their toddlers and negotiate on nursing.

Okay, all right, all right. And then have you done any training in lactation specifically?

Yes, yes. I'm a certified lactation educator. And so I got that through Cal State Northridge. It's basically a six month at the time it was COVID. So it was online course. so basically the difference between a certified, and this is actually really important for everyone to know. You can ask like a certified lactation educator or CLE. It's also known as a CLC, like a counselor is different than an IB CLC, which is kind of the highest ranked.

lactation educator or like lactation expert. And so if you're in the hospital and you're having troubles, definitely ask for that IBCLC. We in my level are really about education and effectively like we can, how it's phrased in my course was we can do everything but touch. We know all the stuff, but we're not as hands on.

Dr. Nicole (07:12.45)
Gotcha, gotcha. Well, I appreciate that. And, you know, my, always come from a perspective of there's certainly something to like your own personal knowledge that you bring to a topic. And we often all come to the work we do because of our own personal experiences. But I also think it shows something when people go that extra step and get some additional education, it just shows a level of commitment to it, I think.

absolutely. And I do not think anyone should be doing this work without that. For sure.

All right, all right. So let's get into, you talked a little bit about, you you had your own experience with extended breastfeeding or nursing and that led you to start wanting to teach others. Was it because, were there any particular feelings around it or did you feel isolated or what did that experience feel like for you?

absolutely. And actually I didn't, when I started nursing mamas, it wasn't, I didn't have the focus of extended nursing initially. was, my first course was actually a prenatal course. And, but as I was finding people and I was connecting more and more with the ones who were beyond a year and with the emotions of it, the struggles, the new moms who were maybe six months and like, I don't want to do this anymore. I mean, I fully,

And if that is their right, I'm not gonna try to convince them otherwise. I didn't understand, because it wasn't my lived experience. And so that I saw the need, I had done some searching, I looked on Instagram and there really wasn't anyone talking about it. And so I decided to take myself down that road and it's been so fulfilling to do that. Because as you mentioned, it was very isolating.

Dr. Nicole (08:51.352)
Good,

Erin Harris (08:54.894)
probably into that more a little bit later. But yeah, the older your child gets, of the more, the less you talk about it, unless you have people in your life who are also in that realm, because people just don't understand.

Definitely, definitely. So why don't we start with, is there a definition of extended? can we use breastfeeding in nursing interchangeably or what is extended breastfeeding?

Yeah, okay. the term is, the best definition I looked up that I agreed with was breastfeeding past the cultural norm, I think is a really good way to phrase it because there is no, to me, true extended. It's whatever works for the mom and baby. so I preferred really toddler nursing as my

my phrase, but in terms of search engines and people know the term extended nursing and it's used often so I use it. But for my purposes, I help women beyond a year of nursing. And that can go up to five years. I don't think I've worked with anyone beyond that, but really the distinction is that let's get out of, you're out of the infant stage and transitioning into that toddler period.

Okay, got it, got it. And how common is it for people to do toddler nursing or extended nursing?

Erin Harris (10:17.454)
Well, that's kind of hard to say because it depends on the age. The CDC has something called a breastfeeding report card that comes out every two years. It seems like for some reason they pushed this current 2024. So the most recent one we have is 2022. And looking at that, national percentage at 12 months, it was 35.9. This is a little tricky. It came out in 2022, but it's looking at data from 2019. So it's actually the year my

my younger was born, which I think is important because this is still pre COVID data. So we still don't know exactly how that influenced it. have ideas, but that's as far as they go. don't, even though, and I'm hoping this changes with the next one, even though the recommendation currently from the AAP is to nurse to two years and beyond, they haven't actually looked at that data to see. that

World Health Organization though has looked at a year and they say at a year 68 % of moms worldwide are still nursing and at two years 44 % still are. So that's a pretty significant number and from what I typically see if you make it to two years you're probably gonna go a little further than that too.

Gotcha. Now I saw a graphic that you had on Instagram that talked about the stages of extended breastfeeding. So what do you define as the different stages?

Yeah, this came about from just talking with a lot of people and seeing a pattern in where they land. And it's not necessarily just developmentally or age related, but the first phase I do start with, I use an analogy of like a flight. So when you're in like really starting off and like ready for takeoff as I call it, it's that.

Erin Harris (12:12.532)
you are exiting that infant stage, the one year to usually 18 months. There's not necessarily a significant difference in the actual nursing experience itself, but there are transitions that happen for many moms where you can maybe wean from the pump at this point. That's usually a game changer. I know it was for me, like getting rid of that thing made nursing more enjoyable. We just...

you know, my body regulated into just being with her and that was really great. But you may also start depending on where you are in the support you have, getting some of that more negative feedback from people or asking when are you going to wean that you maybe didn't get in the first year. So those are the big things from that stage. The second stage I call cruising altitude and it's, it's the best. This is the fun part of, of extended nursing where it's like you're, you have a superpower.

and you're just in sync with your child. And you know, if they're sick, if they're hurt, whatever it is, like you have this amazing resource at your fingertips. And this stage, doesn't matter the age of the child, but this is where I want everyone to be, right? This is the best part of it. Stage three is turbulence. And this is usually when people find me. This is usually when they're touched out, they're not sleeping.

because there's a high rate of co-sleeping with toddler nursing. so there's a lot of dependence on that. And so these are the moms who are struggling to find that balance again. Maybe they're still doing on-demand nursing with a toddler, which I don't necessarily encourage because you end up getting here in this burnt out stage. And stage four is ready to land the plane. So.

There's usually, for me, the biggest distinction I get people in and when they're in turbulence, they say like, I need to wean, but they're not necessarily in the right state of mind to wean. We need to get them some boundary setting going on. And then the people who really are ready to get to those last nursing days, it's a very different mindset and there is a grieving process that goes through that. so emotionally, it's a very different place to be.

Dr. Nicole (14:30.03)
Gotcha, gotcha. That's very helpful, very helpful. So what are some of the rewards and some of the challenges of nursing a toddler?

Oh, okay, so the rewards, just is like when people talk about like that bond, like it's so strong. And I will preface the saying like my younger weaned at four months. So I have very dramatic difference, four and a half years in four months. And so when she cold turkey weaned, I was really worried about that bond, right? I was like, how am I going to connect with this kid?

We absolutely found other ways. So I don't want anyone who's listening to this, who didn't meet maybe your goal to think that you didn't, like you're not gonna have that connection with your child, but it is a unique connection that I had with my older. And so it's just this powerful parenting tool as well. Like as long as it's not your only parenting tool, that's where people really get kind of burnt out. But it is this unique thing that you have that no one else does.

And that can be very powerful. The challenges, as we've already kind of talked about, it can be very isolating. And I know for me, you had asked like, what was my motivation to do this work? My last nursing session was, it wasn't devastating, but the grief I felt was heavier than I ever expected. And we had a very beautiful ending. It was on our terms and we were both ready, but

That's one of my goals. I have a community. I try to be there as a resource for moms who just don't know anyone else who's going through this. I actually asked in my stories yesterday, like, what are some challenges you're facing currently and overwhelmingly? It's sleep. That when you still are struggling with a toddler who's waking and insisting on nursing for years, that's unmanageable, of course.

Dr. Nicole (16:12.866)
Gotcha.

Erin Harris (16:35.432)
And so, but when all you hear people say, well, just wean. Like if that's all you're told, like that's not helpful. Because if it were easy, we would do it. And often these toddlers are very strong-willed and it's a huge challenge to navigate when you're exhausted. So I would say that's usually the biggest challenge I hear when people come to me.

That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. So how is breastfeeding a toddler different than breastfeeding an infant?

It's just so much better in my opinion. Quite honestly, that was actually another reason why I started gravitating to the toddlers is because infants are exhausting, then the pressure, I think the pressure to be this mostly sole provider of nutrition and comfort. It's so much in that first year. So having that pressure off of me was really fantastic. But I would say another amazing thing is they can talk to you about it.

So as they're older, you when my daughter started getting older and was talking more, I asked her, you what does it taste like? And it was her first answer was broccoli. And I was very proud of that. But sometimes it would be ice cream. And then she one time she told me milk is love. And it was just like, OK, like it literally is right in her mind. This is the epitome of love. And when I had my second, I tandem nursed.

And so it was so valuable to have her as the voice of the baby. my younger would be fussy on one side. And so I'd asked my older, what's going on? Is milk coming out? And she's like, yeah, well, this side is okay, but that side blasts out. And I'm like, okay. Yeah, and it was the side I had had mastitis twice on. And so it had very clearly affected the letdown. And so it was just knowing that and having words to put to it was like,

Erin Harris (18:30.39)
It was so helpful. And a very different experience from the first time. So I would say that was my favorite. Yeah, those were my favorite parts.

I never would have thought of that. what does, in terms of like frequency schedule, like what does nursing a toddler look like?

Yeah, so that can vary widely depending on age and like I said, if a mom, what I see a lot of times is a mom trying to do, you may have heard the phrase like don't offer, don't refuse. And so when, as like a strategy to wean, but if you don't refuse, that can look like on demand.

nursing all the time is you know, so I don't usually encourage that like some boundary setting is is Needed especially as they get older Mostly I think the the schedule that Allow women to really get into those deeper years of it is usually like three times a day is very common Okay, so it's very normal. I like wake up time to have those morning snuggles at nap time to get down to bed and then bedtime

maybe overnight occasionally. So that's where I try to get people to if they are still on demand and where people see pretty reasonably they can do.

Dr. Nicole (19:56.17)
Okay. Okay. Now, before we get into like some suggestions, are there or like to help people, are there any misconceptions that you'd like to clear up about extended nursing?

I think there's two that come to mind. The first is that we love it and that we must always love it. And the reality is like, it's really hard a lot of the times. And some of these moms are the moms whose babies refuse bottles. Maybe these are the moms whose babies really couldn't tolerate formula. And so it was not in our minds that we would get here. It felt like we had to. And so that

There's a lot of pressure to be that only person. It's the flip side of the, you know, having feeling like I'm the only one who can do this to why am I the only one that can do this thing? And so having empathy for moms in this position because it is very stressful a lot of the time to continuously use your body to comfort someone else. And the other is this idea of like,

you just want to keep doing it. You're so you're, keeping that kid on your boob and there's, there's no child that if they want to be, if they don't want to nurse, they're not going to nurse. You can't force a child to nurse. And so just knowing that as well, like if you are trying to be responsive to your child and their nursing needs, you're no one is actively like saying you, you have to do this.

Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Okay. So if you are currently nursing a toddler and you're thinking about getting pregnant again, what are some recommendations, know, two or three recommendations you have?

Erin Harris (21:44.258)
Okay, so at different phases, so holistically, nursing during pregnancy is safe. The one caveat to that I would say is if you had trouble getting pregnant the first time, if you've had miscarriages, that that would be something you would want to consider as strongly weaning because you obviously don't want to increase any risks. But if you are nursing a toddler, you had healthy pregnancies,

and you're not quite ready to be done, but you're also in that window of time where you're ready to start trying. It is fine to keep going. It's not otherwise going to affect your chances to get pregnant or anything like that. I recommend the book Adventures in Tandem Nursing. It's really in depth. I read it preparing for my second baby to come and it was very useful. talks about different

know, nursing positions potentially to be creative with a toddler and a baby. And also, you know, strategies, for example, you always want to nurse the baby first. And so I highly recommend that book in terms of preparing mentally for it. It's just I would give yourself a runway, especially with the bedtime of having someone else stepping in with your toddler before baby comes.

You do not want to be the sole provider of nurturing and comfort for a toddler and a newborn. It's a lot. And so setting some of those boundaries and getting to a good nursing, like a daily new nursing routine with your toddler for when baby comes is really going to set you up for better success.

And speaking of that, so is it the in tandem nursing like this question just popped into my head. So is it that when you're doing extending nursing, like are people still like pumping and doing breast milk in a bottle? Is that ever the case or is it more so the physical like?

Erin Harris (23:44.75)
Breastfeeding it's usually breastfeeding. I I don't know any like I would not recommend that. Oh my goodness Like I hated pumping so like the idea of that just sounds terrible I mean I I can see people like maybe you're maybe you've weaned your toddler, but they see the nursing and they're like, hey

Hey, I want some of that, but you don't want to actually latch them. Then certainly I know people who have given their child some breast milk in a cup, so that they can get some nutritional value and that keeps that going without necessarily relatching. But the vast majority are going to be latched to the breast.

Okay, that's what I figured. then like, what is it? So, you know, tandem nursing, I'm trying to like, walk us through what that's like, know, when you're nursing, is it both at the same time? Is it first one, the second one? I can see how that might be exhausting or, well, just tell us, what is it like tandem nursing?

So for me, I'm trying to now think back how I did it. Usually I did not do it at the same time. Because my older, and one of the reasons I decided to keep going was that my older is, she was just mommy's girl. And I knew it was gonna be a problem. And maybe because I'm an only child, I saw like this older child who was used to having me was gonna have this little, you know.

gremlin come in and steal mom all the time. And so I provided it as like some of our one-on-one time. And we did have to set some of those boundaries because she saw the baby nursing on demand all the time and wanted to go back to that. And that was not feeds, you know, tenable. So I would in the morning, I would feed the baby and then she would come in and have a nursing session. But we would get to the point of where it was literally like,

Erin Harris (25:43.798)
all right, we're doing this for three minutes. And when the clock says this, we're going to be done, right? Because they're older and you can have those conversations. And so for me, I was not just, you know, have full access to mom's, you know, milk all the time. And I did do, would do nap time and that, but so that nursing session kind of naturally dropped off though when she dropped her nap. And so then we were kind of at two times a day. Well, and

actually stepping back slightly. I had mentioned my younger had weaned and I was pumping four times a day. So I was not quite enough. We did supplement because I was just not, as I mentioned, I hate the pump. So that's what I felt I could do and make the most sense of our lives and still go. But the older one nursing three times a day kept my milk up. I really don't think I would have been able to pump as long as I did without

So effectively I was getting milk stimulation seven times a day. so that was really important to me as well because I did want to continue having some breast milk for my younger. So that was a really good tool in the end.

Gotcha. That makes sense. makes sense. So what about like physically? What is it like, you know, of course, what comes to mind is like toddlers have teeth and like, you know, bite like, what is it physically like when you're nursing a toddler?

So when a latch is correct, the teeth are nowhere near the nipple. They're hidden by the tongue and the top lip. so yes, toddlers, younger toddlers may start to test and bite, but those are where some of those boundaries come in. So boundary setting isn't just about how often you nurse, it can be...

Erin Harris (27:39.726)
The behavior right like my my daughter would kind of actually I realized it was my fault in the way when she was Starting to nip me a little bit because at the time I would when we were nursing I would take her fingers and kind of nibble on them while she nursed and so she was just mimicking back at me Okay, know I realized so I was like once I stopped that behavior. She stopped right but Another very common toddler behavior is hitting and you know, you don't get what you want

they start whacking you, it is perfectly okay to, my phrase was, I don't share my body with people who hurt me. So we will come back to this later. And so, you know, it's not just letting it go, you know, full throttle. It is teaching them the behaviors that are appropriate to get what you want.

Okay, that definitely makes a lot of sense. Sounds like boundaries are big part

Yeah, it's basically all I teach.

and how to establish boundaries. Now, another thing I'm curious about, you mentioned it earlier, but what is it like for partners and extended breastfeeding and, you know, breasts in our society are very sexualized for lack of a better way of putting it. you know, if you feel like, how does that impact relationships and then like family members around you both, let's start with, you know, how do you,

Dr. Nicole (29:04.248)
How do you deal with that? And then guess part two is what can other people do to support you as opposed to like, you know, frustrating you.

Yeah, fortunately, I find that the vast majority of the people who find me do have very supportive husbands or partners. And those who don't probably aren't getting this far, know? And because it is very hard when you are in a sexualized environment coming into birth, you know, and these, you know, sacks on our chest have been looked at in a certain way.

And when then for years after that, you are using them as a functional tool, still for someone else, I might add, like that it is hard. And the thing I find that husbands and partners struggle with is they see their partner having a hard time and they're fixers. They want to fix, they want to make it better.

they see breastfeeding as the problem because it's the thing we're complaining about. So then, the solution must be we. And that isn't always necessarily the best thing, right? Because especially if you don't have anything else in place, like my big thing is like, you don't want to take away something without replacing it with something else. And most nursing parents who are struggling don't have that something else. don't know what it is. And so it might be that

the dad steps in and says like, okay, well, I'm gonna do bedtime. And you do it cold turkey. it's just like, it's always been mom and all of a sudden it's dad. And the kid screams for three hours. Dad comes out frustrated and is like, forget it, I can't do this. And so what people can do instead of trying to wean or help mom wean in fashions of taking mom away is just support mom in other ways. Do the dishes.

Erin Harris (31:02.722)
Do the laundry, make it so when mom comes out of that bedroom and is exhausted that there is nothing else for her to do besides sit on the couch and watch whatever show she wants to watch. And not asking about sex, right? Don't bring it up. Let her have a moment to just be without being asked of in another way. trust me, those things will make

her more inclined to want that. So that's what I would say for partners. And I think for others, it's more just encouragement saying like, wow, that's amazing what you're doing for your child. Like great job. Instead of saying, when do you think you're going to wean? Just say like, what's your favorite part? Or like ask about it.

And or, you know, ask like, is there anything I can do to help? And that that goes a long way. Just just keeping an open mind and not thinking that our end goal is always just to get to the finish line. The road is the getting there is so much more valuable.

Yeah, yeah. And I can imagine, do people share that they experience some level of judging, like people judging them for their choice?

Definitely for the older kids, I would say after three, that judgment comes in. I certainly felt it. My own mom said one time, like, I'm sorry, that's just wrong. And I just had to be like, well, I'm sorry, that's none of your business. It's just not. I guess something that I didn't bring up was, yeah, it was COVID for my story because I had, my kids were nine months and three and a half years and we were in the thick of it. And I think that

Erin Harris (32:55.31)
What we're going to see when the data comes is that that that lockdown time really impacted a lot of moms to be able to be extended nurses because it reduced that judgment and those that social noise for a lot of women. I don't I think we were kind of coming out it again, you know, as moms go back to work. But we are now in this flexible time with.

a lot of at least office women who work in offices to be able to stay home. And I think we're going to see an uptick in the longevity of how long we nurse because we have that flexibility and privacy to do it without judgment.

That's very true, very true. So, okay, you're at the point you've been doing extended nursing and now you're like, okay, I am ready to be. So what are your like top two or three suggestions for when you come to that point?

So I think I mentioned this before, like you need something else to replace the milk with and you want to build connections. So think about it as whatever void, and it does feel somewhat like a void when you have, you wean a nursing session. What can you fill it with that isn't, another thing I don't agree with is like just distract them, know, like they're smart children.

often and they're really astute and they're not just going to forget about milk. know? Right. So make sure that you are staying connected through play is a huge one for me, but whatever, like you can have a timer and say like, okay, let's play for five minutes. It doesn't have to be that long just to have that, that quick connection. Maybe in the morning, instead of that nursing session, don't just get up and go run, like look them in the eye and still have that, that time.

Erin Harris (34:48.118)
And that's going to go long way with reducing some of those meltdowns that I think overwhelm moms who have never had to experience meltdown without having the fix of the boob to get them quiet instantly.

Yeah, yeah. Now, I should ask, I don't think we talked about this. How long typically are toddler nursing sessions compared to infant nursing sessions?

It varies. would say they ideally to be like in a healthy, manageable way for most moms, no more than 20 minutes. But that to me is even kind of long for older kids. It really does when they're older, sometimes it's just that little connection. They just want a little.

little like you're there, I got you, okay, I'm gonna pop off again. But if you were still listening, if you're listening to this and you have a two or three year old and you're like laughing at me because you're like, what, like we're there on the boob, you know, 30 minutes at a time every time or more, you know, that's, I would say that's probably where some boundaries and if it's working for you, it's working for you. But if it's influencing impacting their meals, right, or your sanity, then it's time to reduce that a bit.

Gotcha, gotcha. And then do you find like, for most people or is there are there any generalities about the weaning process? Like how long does it take or do you prefer or not prefer or recommend or do you have thoughts on toddler led versus the mom deciding that it's time to be a

Erin Harris (36:22.686)
Yeah, okay. That's a great question. I do have recommendations mostly to not do it very fast. think, so this is the model that usually happens. Someone gets burnt out, they're done, it's reactionary and they try like, I'm going cold turkey. And that's not good for a couple of reasons. Obviously like emotionally, that's going to be harder. But physically also, during the weaning process, all of those early issues like mastitis,

clogged ducts, engorgement come back if you do it too quickly. And so we really want to make sure that we're reducing the risks of all of that for you. So it always depends on where the starting point is, right? If someone comes to me and they're still nursing their toddler on demand throughout the night and five times during the day, it's, we're going to take a few months, I would say, to get to, if they're really ready to wean and want to be done. So, you know, if someone says I have high risk pregnancies, I want,

to work on my neck, you know, getting pregnant again, I'm ready to wean, well, we really need to pare that down. But if someone comes to me with a four year old and they're in, they nurse twice a day and for a few minutes, but they're just like clinging and not, they haven't been able to figure out how to cut that cord completely. We talk about, you know, the emotional aspect of it and how to celebrate it and build community around it and to make it feel less just like done.

This is it, you know. Gotcha. So, and that could take a few weeks.

Okay, okay, that makes sense, that makes sense. Okay, well then as we wrap up, what would you say is the most frustrating part of the work you do?

Erin Harris (38:06.222)
I mean, honest, if I'm being totally honest, it's more like marketing. It's the business side, it's Instagram, like trying to find people. It is just a constant battle managing that. But when it comes to actually working with people, it's so fulfilling. And it just, heals that part of me where I was alone and knowing that I can be there for them in their time of need is so fulfilling.

So what is the most rewarding part of

When I get emails or DMs from people who maybe I had a consult with once or we worked within our communities, whatever it is, and they send me a message and a picture saying, we got there, we made it, and they're happy and it's a celebration. And that's the best part, knowing that, you know, they had a better and an experience.

holistically because I could be there for them is just the best feeling.

Yeah, I bet. Is there anything that we didn't touch upon that I just find this so like I can for my own knowledge, just just not something that I know enough about. So I just think it's important that we talk about it and normalize it. So is there anything that we missed that you want to tell folks?

Erin Harris (39:27.47)
I think, you know, it's, it's solely up to you if you decide to share about it or not. I talk about it all the time. So for me, I, I just, it's, it's so normal to talk about it. But even like if I, so when I say to someone like, yeah, I nursed for four and a half years. And if I get that like big eyed look, I'm like, yeah, I guess that's right. This isn't super normal to talk about all the time. But I, you know, like,

It's up to you. If you want to keep it private, it is your objective and it can just be that way, but just know you don't, if you're starting to feel isolated in that privacy, that's that there are communities that we have out there for you to connect with. But if you decide to be that advocate or you want, I personally was never, even when they were young, comfortable nursing in public, I've

very large chested, that whole sexuality, like I couldn't get past that. But so when I see moms and they're out nursing their toddlers, it's like, I just want to give them a high five. It's amazing, right? Because the more we do see it, the more normalized it will be. So I do hope that one day in Europe, in Europe, it's totally different. Super normal. But you know, we're here. So we are.

So then what would be your favorite piece of advice that you would give to a mom around this?

Okay. For a new mom, or if you are a mom with a toddler and you're expecting a second, I would really recommend if it's financially feasible to get a postpartum doula. think that is a game changer for my, I mentioned it was hard in the beginning with my first, I had some pretty negative experiences, unfortunately with my hospital, just they didn't, they didn't have the space or time. Like I was,

Erin Harris (41:17.998)
days postpartum and they couldn't see me for two weeks. And if I had waited in that time, and they had literally told me on the milk line to go get formula. Right. And after all of the messaging, like they were, you know, baby friendly hospital, Yeah. I, if I hadn't been able to reach out and get someone to me,

It's like, well, we can't help you actually.

Erin Harris (41:41.678)
I wouldn't be here today. I would not have gotten to four years without, and this actually goes to my second piece of advice is don't think about years. Don't think about a goal being six, even six months. I know we hear that as the goal, the exclusive nursing for six months. The first goal should just be getting a good latch. Just focus on that and go hour to hour session to session because it is a lot.

no matter how much you prepare before, like it is going to be a lot of a new experience. And so you can't get to four years if you don't get to four weeks. So just focus on those beginning days and it gets easier and easier. And actually I am thinking of one thing that you had asked me what else we hadn't touched on. And I think a really big thing to also bring up that's important is the discrepancy between breastfeeding rates.

of different ethnicities and how, it is to me very unfortunate that I vastly see white women. because that's something we continue to have to work on, but that comes from the newborn phase, that comes from giving women postpartum care. again, you're not gonna get to a year or two years if you're not getting past those first few weeks.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Excellent, excellent advice. Well, where can people find you?

I'm on Instagram at Erin dot nursing mama. So you can say hello, please come follow DM me. I have a podcast myself that is with it's been like six months now. So we have a few episodes up and it's called weaning it a podcast for toddler nursing moms. And so I bring on guests to share their experiences. Again, my, my goal with it is to educate, but also just to show you that you're not alone. so different lived experiences there. So

Erin Harris (43:34.304)
If you, if this is a topic that you're interested in, please come listen and you can find me also at nursing mamas.com. All my courses communities are there. And then last, I think I have a free quiz. So we talked about the different stages. If you are interested to know what stage you're in and get resources specifically geared toward that stage, you can go to nursing mamas.com forward slash quiz to get that.

Awesome. Thank you. And we will link all of that in the show notes. Well, thank you so much, Erin, for agreeing to come on to the podcast. This was really informative and just again, a topic that's so important to talk about. And I really appreciate all of the wonderful information you share.

thank you so much for having me. I'm grateful I could share it with your audience.

Dr. Nicole (44:25.208)
Isn't that a great episode? So many great insights. And you know, after I have a guest on, I do something called Dr. Nicole's Notes, where I talk about my top takeaways from the conversation. Here are my five takeaways from my conversation with Erin. Number one, extended breastfeeding or extended nursing is more common than you think, but it is still quite isolating. Nursing passed a year actually isn't unusual globally.

But in the US, cultural norms can make moms feel isolated. Erin reminds us that extended just means going beyond the cultural norm, not a specific age. So if you want to do extended nursing, you're not alone and you certainly are not weird or unusual. Totally, totally normal. Number two, start early and line up that support while you're still pregnant.

One piece of advice that I wish I would have been able to follow myself is to line up a lactation consultant before your baby comes. Remember how Erin shared that she would have had to wait two weeks to be seen at the hospital, which is just not realistic when you're struggling in those early days of breastfeeding. So you want to look for an IBCLC prenatally so you're not scrambling for help when you need it most.

A postpartum doula can also be a real game changer for breastfeeding support and your overall recovery. A postpartum doula often is both certified as a lactation consultant as well. So that is another option for you too. Number three, boundaries are not the enemy, they're the lifeline. If you're feeling overwhelmed, you don't have to stop nursing. You might just need those boundaries. Erin talked about how you can keep that connection without

being an on-demand milk factory 24 seven. So think about scheduled nursing sessions, having your partner step in or simply saying not right now, boundaries protect both your bond and your wellbeing. I remember when I was breastfeeding, I always felt like my whole schedule revolved around pumping and nursing and perhaps with boundaries, it doesn't have to feel that way.

Dr. Nicole (46:41.526)
Now, number four, don't think in years, just think in hours or the next session. This one's really important. Erin said, you can't get to four years if you don't get to four weeks. That's real talk. So if you're just starting out, don't get caught up in those long-term goals of three months, six months, a year, just focus on getting a good latch, then the next feed, then the next day and take it step by step and that time will add up.

And then number five, the end is also a beginning. So when you're ready to wean, it helps to think about what will replace that nursing connection, not just taking it away, whether it's snuggling or reading together or quiet five minute playtime, find ways to stay close. Weaning is often emotional for both you and your child. That's okay. And that's normal.

You want to celebrate the journey, know that there's no one right way to do it and just find a good replacement for that nursing connection. And then finally, remember that whether you breastfeed for a few days, a few months or a few years, you will be doing a beautiful job. And if you want instructor support for birth and postpartum, do check out the Birth with Power Pathways, my

online childbirth education class, brand new coming out in May. If you want to be the first to know, hop on my email list, drnicholerinkins.com forward slash email. So you will get notified when it's ready. So that's it for this episode. If you found it helpful, please share it with a friend because every pregnant woman deserves to feel informed and empowered. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you're loving the show, again, I'd really appreciate you leaving that quick review in Apple podcast.

It helps more moms to be fine birth with power. Most importantly, it helps them step into their birth with confidence, just like you. Now do me one more favor and come on back next week and remember to trust your power and take charge of your birth.